📅 Original date posted:2016-08-09
📝 Original message:Thomas
In all honesty, I shouldn't have added the multiple feature. It should
always stay to one and have the Bitcoin address's built in checksum do all
of the heavy lifting (or implement another checksum into the protocol).
Having said that, it would make the most sense to not include BIP21
requests. The frequencies that are going to be used are prone to being
changed (probably moving them into the ultrasound range, at least for the
16 tones)
Luke Dashjr
I thought it was only 12, will change it accordingly.
Chris
I looked at Audio Modem and will probably look at the others soon as well.
The general idea of this BIP is to see if you all even approve of the idea
of sending Bitcoin addresses over sound waves. I will push it into the
ultrasound, and I might implement phase modulation.
On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 8:09 PM, Thomas Daede via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> If this is just encoding BIP-21 addresses, it is basically an "audio QR
> code". In this case, does publishing it as a BIP still make sense? (Not
> to imply that it doesn't, but it's something you should consider.)
>
> Please look at existing implementations of audio modems when creating
> your design. A lot of this work has been done many times before, so
> there is a lot to learn from.
>
> Your selected frequencies are harmonics of each other, meaning nonlinear
> distortion will make detection more difficult. The Bell 202 and similar
> modem standards chose AFSK frequencies to minimize interference.
>
> Repeating a message multiple times is a very inefficient method of error
> recovery. It works, but there may be better techniques, such as trellis
> modulation or other convolutional codes.
>
> Defining channel models to simulate your various use cases will help a
> lot to determine if you have met your requirements.
>
> - Thomas
>
> P.S. I also briefly considered audio to exchange transactions with a
> hardware wallet. Using GNU Radio made the implementation much easier.
>
> On 08/09/2016 04:06 PM, Daniel Hoffman via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > I have updated the GitHub a lot (changed tones to be less chirpy, fixed
> > some smalls) and made a couple of samples (see attachment for MP3 and
> > FLAC of both tone tables, first 16 then 4). Is this good enough to
> > warrant an official BIP number? I haven't built a decoder yet, but it
> > seems like the encoder is working properly (looked at Audacity, seems
> > like it is working), and some people on reddit want to "allow for
> > decoding experiments"
> > <https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/4wsn7v/bip_proposal_
> addresses_over_audio_thoughts/d69m3st>
> >
> > What suggestions do you all have for it?
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 8:50 PM, Daniel Hoffman
> > <danielhoffman699 at gmail.com <mailto:danielhoffman699 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > It wouldn't be feasible in the vast majority of cases, but I can't
> > think of a reason why it can't be built into the standard.
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Trevin Hofmann via bitcoin-dev
> > <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Would it be feasible to transmit an entire BIP21 URI as audio?
> > If you were to encode any extra information (such as amount), it
> > would be useful to include a checksum for the entire message.
> > This checksum could possibly be used instead of the checksum in
> > the address.
> >
> > Trevin
> >
> >
> > On Aug 8, 2016 3:06 PM, "Justin Newton via bitcoin-dev"
> > <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Daniel,
> > Thanks for proposing this. I think this could have some
> > useful use cases as you state. I was wondering what you
> > would think to adding some additional tones to optionally
> > denote an amount (in satoshis?).
> >
> > (FYI, actual link is here: https://github.com/Dako300/BIP
> > <https://github.com/Dako300/BIP>; )
> >
> > Justin
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Daniel Hoffman via
> > bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
> >
> > This is my BIP idea: a fast, robust, and standardized
> > for representing Bitcoin addresses over audio. It takes
> > the binary representation of the Bitcoin address (little
> > endian), chops that up into 4 or 2 bit chunks (depending
> > on type, 2 bit only for low quality audio like american
> > telephone lines), and generates a tone based upon that
> > value. This started because I wanted an easy way to
> > donate to podcasts that I listen to, and having a
> > Shazam-esque app (or a media player with this
> > capability) that gives me an address automatically would
> > be wonderful for both the consumer and producer. Comes
> > with error correction built into the protocol
> >
> > You can see the full specification of the BIP on my
> > GitHub page (https://github.com/Dako300/BIP-0153
> > <https://github.com/Dako300/BIP-0153>;).
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.
> org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> > <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/
> listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Justin W. Newton
> > Founder/CEO
> > Netki, Inc.
> >
> > justin at netki.com <mailto:justin at netki.com>
> > +1.818.261.4248 <tel:+1.818.261.4248>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-
> dev
> > <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/
> listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > <mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> > <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>;
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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Daniel Hoffman [ARCHIVE] /
npub1w8…42tvq
2023-06-07 17:52:34
in reply to nevent1q…zauf
Author Public Key
npub1w8te8anuulyvfk5se0adzzypu2yrx7edahqyxwp8hdexk9k2a5fq542tvqSeen on
wss://relay.nostr.bandPublished at
2023-06-07 17:52:34Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2016-08-09\n📝 Original message:Thomas\nIn all honesty, I shouldn't have added the multiple feature. It should\nalways stay to one and have the Bitcoin address's built in checksum do all\nof the heavy lifting (or implement another checksum into the protocol).\nHaving said that, it would make the most sense to not include BIP21\nrequests. The frequencies that are going to be used are prone to being\nchanged (probably moving them into the ultrasound range, at least for the\n16 tones)\n\nLuke Dashjr\nI thought it was only 12, will change it accordingly.\n\nChris\nI looked at Audio Modem and will probably look at the others soon as well.\n\nThe general idea of this BIP is to see if you all even approve of the idea\nof sending Bitcoin addresses over sound waves. I will push it into the\nultrasound, and I might implement phase modulation.\n\nOn Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 8:09 PM, Thomas Daede via bitcoin-dev \u003c\nbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\n\u003e If this is just encoding BIP-21 addresses, it is basically an \"audio QR\n\u003e code\". In this case, does publishing it as a BIP still make sense? (Not\n\u003e to imply that it doesn't, but it's something you should consider.)\n\u003e\n\u003e Please look at existing implementations of audio modems when creating\n\u003e your design. A lot of this work has been done many times before, so\n\u003e there is a lot to learn from.\n\u003e\n\u003e Your selected frequencies are harmonics of each other, meaning nonlinear\n\u003e distortion will make detection more difficult. The Bell 202 and similar\n\u003e modem standards chose AFSK frequencies to minimize interference.\n\u003e\n\u003e Repeating a message multiple times is a very inefficient method of error\n\u003e recovery. It works, but there may be better techniques, such as trellis\n\u003e modulation or other convolutional codes.\n\u003e\n\u003e Defining channel models to simulate your various use cases will help a\n\u003e lot to determine if you have met your requirements.\n\u003e\n\u003e - Thomas\n\u003e\n\u003e P.S. I also briefly considered audio to exchange transactions with a\n\u003e hardware wallet. Using GNU Radio made the implementation much easier.\n\u003e\n\u003e On 08/09/2016 04:06 PM, Daniel Hoffman via bitcoin-dev wrote:\n\u003e \u003e I have updated the GitHub a lot (changed tones to be less chirpy, fixed\n\u003e \u003e some smalls) and made a couple of samples (see attachment for MP3 and\n\u003e \u003e FLAC of both tone tables, first 16 then 4). Is this good enough to\n\u003e \u003e warrant an official BIP number? I haven't built a decoder yet, but it\n\u003e \u003e seems like the encoder is working properly (looked at Audacity, seems\n\u003e \u003e like it is working), and some people on reddit want to \"allow for\n\u003e \u003e decoding experiments\"\n\u003e \u003e \u003chttps://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/4wsn7v/bip_proposal_\n\u003e addresses_over_audio_thoughts/d69m3st\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e What suggestions do you all have for it?\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 8:50 PM, Daniel Hoffman\n\u003e \u003e \u003cdanielhoffman699 at gmail.com \u003cmailto:danielhoffman699 at gmail.com\u003e\u003e wrote:\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e It wouldn't be feasible in the vast majority of cases, but I can't\n\u003e \u003e think of a reason why it can't be built into the standard.\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Trevin Hofmann via bitcoin-dev\n\u003e \u003e \u003cbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e \u003e \u003cmailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e\u003e wrote:\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e Would it be feasible to transmit an entire BIP21 URI as audio?\n\u003e \u003e If you were to encode any extra information (such as amount), it\n\u003e \u003e would be useful to include a checksum for the entire message.\n\u003e \u003e This checksum could possibly be used instead of the checksum in\n\u003e \u003e the address.\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e Trevin\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e On Aug 8, 2016 3:06 PM, \"Justin Newton via bitcoin-dev\"\n\u003e \u003e \u003cbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e \u003e \u003cmailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e\u003e wrote:\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e Daniel,\n\u003e \u003e Thanks for proposing this. I think this could have some\n\u003e \u003e useful use cases as you state. I was wondering what you\n\u003e \u003e would think to adding some additional tones to optionally\n\u003e \u003e denote an amount (in satoshis?).\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e (FYI, actual link is here: https://github.com/Dako300/BIP\n\u003e \u003e \u003chttps://github.com/Dako300/BIP\u003e )\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e Justin\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Daniel Hoffman via\n\u003e \u003e bitcoin-dev \u003cbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e \u003e \u003cmailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e\u003e wrote:\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e This is my BIP idea: a fast, robust, and standardized\n\u003e \u003e for representing Bitcoin addresses over audio. It takes\n\u003e \u003e the binary representation of the Bitcoin address (little\n\u003e \u003e endian), chops that up into 4 or 2 bit chunks (depending\n\u003e \u003e on type, 2 bit only for low quality audio like american\n\u003e \u003e telephone lines), and generates a tone based upon that\n\u003e \u003e value. This started because I wanted an easy way to\n\u003e \u003e donate to podcasts that I listen to, and having a\n\u003e \u003e Shazam-esque app (or a media player with this\n\u003e \u003e capability) that gives me an address automatically would\n\u003e \u003e be wonderful for both the consumer and producer. Comes\n\u003e \u003e with error correction built into the protocol\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e You can see the full specification of the BIP on my\n\u003e \u003e GitHub page (https://github.com/Dako300/BIP-0153\n\u003e \u003e \u003chttps://github.com/Dako300/BIP-0153\u003e).\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e \u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e \u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e \u003e \u003cmailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e\n\u003e \u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.\n\u003e org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e \u003e \u003chttps://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/\n\u003e listinfo/bitcoin-dev\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e --\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e Justin W. Newton\n\u003e \u003e Founder/CEO\n\u003e \u003e Netki, Inc.\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e justin at netki.com \u003cmailto:justin at netki.com\u003e\n\u003e \u003e +1.818.261.4248 \u003ctel:+1.818.261.4248\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e \u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e \u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e \u003e \u003cmailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e\n\u003e \u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-\n\u003e dev\n\u003e \u003e \u003chttps://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/\n\u003e listinfo/bitcoin-dev\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e \u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e \u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e \u003e \u003cmailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e\n\u003e \u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e \u003e \u003chttps://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e \u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e \u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e \u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20160809/5b88055b/attachment-0001.html\u003e",
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