Dikaios1517 on Nostr: I'll have to check that documentary out. I have no doubt that governments often have ...

I'll have to check that documentary out. I have no doubt that governments often have been and are antagonistic against the church.

1 Samuel 8 cannot be thought of as ending the debate. It is only regarding the dangers of monarchy, not the dangers of civil government at all. In the end, God turned even the monarchy into an expression of his covenant promises, establishing David's throne as an everlasting kingdom, which would ultimately be fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

"At best, a state is minimally harmful, minimally... not zero..."

100% agree! However, the same can be said for EVERY kind of institution where a fallen human being is involved, whether that be the church, the family, the government, or free enterprise. The Devil has ample room to creep in to all of these institutions so long as they are made up of men. This is no argument that the institutions should not exist. Only that they should have checks on any one of them having too much power.

Voluntarism is NOT the standard of morality. It can certainly be a factor, but it is not the end-all/be-all of what is right and wrong. How do we know this? Because in the end, every knee will be made to bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; even those who hate him. God has the right to impose his will upon us, and Scripture tells us that he has ordained the existence of civil government for the restraint of evil.

So... What is it that then restrains the evil of civil governments? I believe it is sound money. Hence, not long after governments broke their last tenuous ties to sound money via the gold standard, God gave us Bitcoin.

"so, in no case does the authority of God come second to any man made authority, ever"

Again, 100% agree! Paul's framing in Romans 13 clearly puts the civil magistrate under God's authority as his "servant" (verse 4). That means, whenever the governing authorities go against God's authority, we are under zero obligation to obey. We must obey the higher authority and oppose them.

All laws are an expression of morality. The question is whether they are an expression of God's morality or someone else's. The only true morality is God's, and therefore civil laws ought to be based on God's moral law. Insofar as civil laws conform to God's moral law, (such as laws against murder, theft, etc) we ought to obey them. Yes, obey, not meek evasion. But insofar as they do not reflect God's moral law, we are under no such obligation. To that extent, the state is no longer acting as God's servant, and we are therefore compelled to submit to the greater authority rather than the lesser.