Lonero Foundation [ARCHIVE] / is on Nostr

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🗓️ Active from 2021-03-04 to 2021-03-17
💬 Posted a total of 20 messages
📚 Participated in the following categories: bitcoin-dev
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2023-06-07 18:30:25

- reply

📅 Original date posted:2021-03-05
📝 Original message:Hi, Eric. Chia's network is a bad example. They go after energy consumption
in the wrong way entirely. True, it requires a comparable cost of hardware.
I am trying to tackle cryptography in a way that goes much beyond that.
Part of what I am doing includes lowering invalided proofs while trying to
get the best of both worlds in regards to PoW and PoC. It is an efficiency
issue to the core. In regards to the mechanisms of how I will do that, I
suggest you look at the entire proposal which is why I am hoping the BIP
team would be so gracious as to allow me to draft it out on GitHub.
Best regards, Andrew
On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 4:42 PM Eric Voskuil <eric at voskuil.org> wrote:
> How is the argument against PoM only partially true?
>
> I wrote this as soon as I saw Chia. Had two debates on Twitter with Brahm,
> before he blocked me. Two years later, after they finally realized I was
> correct, one of their PhDs contacted me and told me. Better to flesh this
> out early. They had already raised $20 and done their research, so he
> wasn’t exactly in a listening mode.
>
> e
>
> On Mar 5, 2021, at 13:20, Lonero Foundation <loneroassociation at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Actually I mentioned a proof of space and time hybrid which is much
> different than staking. Sorry to draw for the confusion as PoC is more
> commonly used then PoST.
> There is a way to make PoC cryptographically compatible w/ Proof of Work
> as it normally stands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_space
> It has rarely been done though given the technological complexity of being
> both CPU compatible and memory-hard compatible. There are lots of benefits
> outside of the realm of efficiency, and I already looked into numerous
> fault tolerant designs as well and what others in the cryptography
> community attempted to propose. The actual argument you have only against
> this is the Proof of Memory fallacy, which is only partially true. Given
> how the current hashing algorithm works, hard memory allocation wouldn't be
> of much benefit given it is more optimized for CPU/ASIC specific mining.
> I'm working towards a hybrid mechanism that fixes that. BTW: The way
> Bitcoin currently stands in its cryptography still needs updating
> regardless. If someone figures out NP hardness or the halting problem the
> traditional rule of millions of years to break all of Bitcoin's
> cryptography now comes down to minutes. Bitcoin is going to have to
> eventually radically upgrade their cryptography and hashing algo in the
> future regardless. I want to integrate some form of NP complexity in
> regards to the hybrid cryptography I'm aiming to provide which includes a
> polynomial time algorithm in the cryptography. More than likely the first
> version of my BTC hard fork will be coded in a way where integrating such
> complexity in the future only requires a soft fork or minor upgrade to its
> chain.
>
> In regards to the argument, "As a separate issue, proposing a hard fork in
> the hashing algorithm will invalidate the enormous amount of capital
> expenditure by mining entities and disincentivize future capital
> expenditure into mining hardware that may compute these more "useful"
> proofs of work."
>
> A large portion of BTC is already mined through AWS servers and non-asic
> specific hardware anyways. A majority of them would benefit from a hybrid
> proof, and the fact that it is hybrid in that manner wouldn't
> disenfranchise currently optimized mining entities as well.
>
> There are other reasons why a cryptography upgrade like this is
> beneficial. Theoretically one can argue BItcoin isn't fully decentralized.
> It is few unsolved mathematical proofs away from being entirely broken. My
> goal outside of efficiency is to build cryptography in a way that prevents
> such an event from happening in the future, if it was to ever happen. I
> have various research in regards to this area and work alot with
> distributed computing. I believe if the BTC community likes such a
> proposal, I would single handedly be able to build the cryptographic proof
> myself (though would like as many open source contributors as I can get :)
>
> Anyways just something to consider. We are in the same space in regards to
> what warrants a shitcoin or the whole argument against staking.
>
> https://hackernoon.com/ethereum-you-are-a-centralized-cryptocurrency-stop-telling-us-that-you-arent-pi3s3yjl
>
> Best regards, Andrew
>
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 3:53 PM Eric Voskuil <eric at voskuil.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Andrew,
>>
>> Do you mean that you can reduce the cost of executing the cryptography at
>> a comparable level of security? If so this will only have the effect of
>> increasing the amount of it that is required to consume the same cost.
>>
>> https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Efficiency-Paradox
>>
>> You mentioned a staking hybrid in your original post.
>>
>> https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Hybrid-Mining-Fallacy
>>
>> This would be a change to dynamics - the economic forces at work. Staking
>> is not censorship resistant
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy
>>
>> and is therefore what I refer to as cryptodynamically insecure.
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Cryptodynamic-Principles
>>
>> As such it wouldn’t likely be considered as a contribution to Bitcoin. It
>> might of course be useful in some other context.
>>
>> https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Shitcoin-Definition
>>
>> But BIPs are proposals aimed at Bitcoin improvement.
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0001.mediawiki#What_is_a_BIP
>>
>> Non-staking attempts to improve energy efficiency are either proof of
>> work in disguise, such as proof of memory:
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of-Memory-Fallacy
>>
>> or attempts to repurpose “wasteful” computing, such as by finding prime
>> numbers, which does not imply a reduction in dedicated energy
>> consumption.
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Dedicated-Cost-Principle
>>
>> Finally, waste and renewable energy approaches at “carbon” (vs energy)
>> reduction must still consume the same in cost as the reward. In other
>> words, the apparent benefit represents a temporary market shift, with
>> advantage to first movers. The market will still consume what it consumes.
>> If the hashing energy was free all reward consumption would shift to
>> operations.
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Byproduct-Mining-Fallacy
>>
>> The motivation behind these attempts is naively understandable, but based
>> on a false premise.
>>
>> https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Energy-Waste-Fallacy
>>
>> The one thing that reduces Bitcoin energy consumption is an increase in
>> energy cost relative to block reward.
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Energy-Exhaustion-Fallacy
>>
>> e
>>
>> On Mar 5, 2021, at 07:30, Lonero Foundation via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi, this isn't about the energy efficient argument in regards to
>> renewables or mining devices but a better cryptography layer to get the
>> most out of your hashing for validation. I do understand the arbitrariness
>> of it, but do want to still propose a document. Do I use the Media Wiki
>> format on GitHub and just attach it as my proposal?
>>
>> Best regards, Andrew
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:07 AM Devrandom <c1.devrandom at niftybox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ryan and Andrew,
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 5:42 AM Ryan Grant via bitcoin-dev <
>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
>>>> "Nothing is Cheaper than Proof of Work"
>>>> on | 04 Aug 2015
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Just to belabor this a bit, the paper demonstrates that the mining
>>> market will tend to expend resources equivalent to miner reward. It does
>>> not prove that mining work has to expend *energy* as a primary cost.
>>>
>>> Some might argue that energy expenditure has negative externalities and
>>> that we should move to other resources. I would argue that the negative
>>> externalities will go away soon because of the move to renewables, so the
>>> point is likely moot.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
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2023-06-07 18:30:07

- reply

📅 Original date posted:2021-03-05
📝 Original message:Actually I mentioned a proof of space and time hybrid which is much
different than staking. Sorry to draw for the confusion as PoC is more
commonly used then PoST.
There is a way to make PoC cryptographically compatible w/ Proof of Work as
it normally stands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_space
It has rarely been done though given the technological complexity of being
both CPU compatible and memory-hard compatible. There are lots of benefits
outside of the realm of efficiency, and I already looked into numerous
fault tolerant designs as well and what others in the cryptography
community attempted to propose. The actual argument you have only against
this is the Proof of Memory fallacy, which is only partially true. Given
how the current hashing algorithm works, hard memory allocation wouldn't be
of much benefit given it is more optimized for CPU/ASIC specific mining.
I'm working towards a hybrid mechanism that fixes that. BTW: The way
Bitcoin currently stands in its cryptography still needs updating
regardless. If someone figures out NP hardness or the halting problem the
traditional rule of millions of years to break all of Bitcoin's
cryptography now comes down to minutes. Bitcoin is going to have to
eventually radically upgrade their cryptography and hashing algo in the
future regardless. I want to integrate some form of NP complexity in
regards to the hybrid cryptography I'm aiming to provide which includes a
polynomial time algorithm in the cryptography. More than likely the first
version of my BTC hard fork will be coded in a way where integrating such
complexity in the future only requires a soft fork or minor upgrade to its
chain.
In regards to the argument, "As a separate issue, proposing a hard fork in
the hashing algorithm will invalidate the enormous amount of capital
expenditure by mining entities and disincentivize future capital
expenditure into mining hardware that may compute these more "useful"
proofs of work."
A large portion of BTC is already mined through AWS servers and non-asic
specific hardware anyways. A majority of them would benefit from a hybrid
proof, and the fact that it is hybrid in that manner wouldn't
disenfranchise currently optimized mining entities as well.
There are other reasons why a cryptography upgrade like this is beneficial.
Theoretically one can argue BItcoin isn't fully decentralized. It is few
unsolved mathematical proofs away from being entirely broken. My goal
outside of efficiency is to build cryptography in a way that prevents such
an event from happening in the future, if it was to ever happen. I have
various research in regards to this area and work alot with distributed
computing. I believe if the BTC community likes such a proposal, I would
single handedly be able to build the cryptographic proof myself (though
would like as many open source contributors as I can get :)
Anyways just something to consider. We are in the same space in regards to
what warrants a shitcoin or the whole argument against staking.
https://hackernoon.com/ethereum-you-are-a-centralized-cryptocurrency-stop-telling-us-that-you-arent-pi3s3yjl
Best regards, Andrew
On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 4:11 PM Keagan McClelland <
keagan.mcclelland at gmail.com> wrote:
> It is important to understand that it is critical for the work to be
> "useless" in order for the security model to be the same. If the work was
> useful it provides an avenue for actors to have nothing at stake when
> submitting a proof of work, since the marginal cost of block construction
> will be lessened by the fact that the work was useful in a different
> context and therefore would have been done anyway. This actually degrades
> the security of the network in the process.
>
> As a separate issue, proposing a hard fork in the hashing algorithm will
> invalidate the enormous amount of capital expenditure by mining entities
> and disincentivize future capital expenditure into mining hardware that may
> compute these more "useful" proofs of work. This is because any change in
> the POW algorithm will be considered unstable and subject to change in the
> future. This puts the entire network at even more risk meaning that no
> entity is tying their own interests to that of the bitcoin network at
> large. It also puts the developers in a position where they can be bribed
> by entities with a vested interest in deciding what the new "useful" proof
> of work should be.
>
> All of these things make the Bitcoin network worse off.
>
> Keagan
>
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 1:48 PM Lonero Foundation via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Also in regards to my other email, I forgot to iterate that my
>> cryptography proposal helps behind the efficiency category but also tackles
>> problems such as NP-Completeness or Halting which is something the BTC
>> network could be vulnerable to in the future. For sake of simplicity, I do
>> want to do this BIP because it tackles lots of the issues in regards to
>> this manner and can provide useful insight to the community. If things such
>> as bigger block height have been proposed as hard forks, I feel at the very
>> least an upgrade regarding the hashing algorithm and cryptography does at
>> least warrant some discussion. Anyways I hope I can send you my BIP, just
>> let me know on the preferred format?
>>
>> Best regards, Andrew
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:12 AM Lonero Foundation <
>> loneroassociation at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, this isn't about the energy efficient argument in regards to
>>> renewables or mining devices but a better cryptography layer to get the
>>> most out of your hashing for validation. I do understand the arbitrariness
>>> of it, but do want to still propose a document. Do I use the Media Wiki
>>> format on GitHub and just attach it as my proposal?
>>>
>>> Best regards, Andrew
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:07 AM Devrandom <c1.devrandom at niftybox.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Ryan and Andrew,
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 5:42 AM Ryan Grant via bitcoin-dev <
>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
>>>>> "Nothing is Cheaper than Proof of Work"
>>>>> on | 04 Aug 2015
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Just to belabor this a bit, the paper demonstrates that the mining
>>>> market will tend to expend resources equivalent to miner reward. It does
>>>> not prove that mining work has to expend *energy* as a primary cost.
>>>>
>>>> Some might argue that energy expenditure has negative externalities and
>>>> that we should move to other resources. I would argue that the negative
>>>> externalities will go away soon because of the move to renewables, so the
>>>> point is likely moot.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>
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2023-06-07 18:30:06

- reply

📅 Original date posted:2021-03-04
📝 Original message:Hello, I want to start a new BIP proposal aiming to tackle some of the
energy efficiency issues w/ Bitcoin mining. Excuse my ignorance given this
is my first time making a BIP proposal, but is there a specific format I
need to follow? Do I just make a draft on my personal GitHub or need to
attach the README?
Anyways my idea is centered around a hybrid mining integration w/ POW/PoST
for BTC's SHA-256 hash algorithm. The integration is actually a
cryptography proof. While I would prefer a soft fork integration, a vastly
different cryptography proof without affecting the current node integration
is less than feasible.
Anyways, I do want to submit my document explaining everything and how all
this would work. I am mostly a Quantum Engineer and Bioinformatics
consultant for a living, so I think what I can propose to an extent may be
of interest to some.
Best regards,
Andrew M. K. Nassief
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2023-06-07 18:30:06

- reply

📅 Original date posted:2021-03-05
📝 Original message:Hi, this isn't about the energy efficient argument in regards to renewables
or mining devices but a better cryptography layer to get the most out of
your hashing for validation. I do understand the arbitrariness of it, but
do want to still propose a document. Do I use the Media Wiki format on
GitHub and just attach it as my proposal?
Best regards, Andrew
On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:07 AM Devrandom <c1.devrandom at niftybox.net> wrote:
> Hi Ryan and Andrew,
>
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 5:42 AM Ryan Grant via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
>> "Nothing is Cheaper than Proof of Work"
>> on | 04 Aug 2015
>>
>>
> Just to belabor this a bit, the paper demonstrates that the mining market
> will tend to expend resources equivalent to miner reward. It does not
> prove that mining work has to expend *energy* as a primary cost.
>
> Some might argue that energy expenditure has negative externalities and
> that we should move to other resources. I would argue that the negative
> externalities will go away soon because of the move to renewables, so the
> point is likely moot.
>
>
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2023-06-07 18:30:06

- reply

📅 Original date posted:2021-03-05
📝 Original message:Also in regards to my other email, I forgot to iterate that my cryptography
proposal helps behind the efficiency category but also tackles problems
such as NP-Completeness or Halting which is something the BTC network could
be vulnerable to in the future. For sake of simplicity, I do want to do
this BIP because it tackles lots of the issues in regards to this manner
and can provide useful insight to the community. If things such as bigger
block height have been proposed as hard forks, I feel at the very least an
upgrade regarding the hashing algorithm and cryptography does at least
warrant some discussion. Anyways I hope I can send you my BIP, just let me
know on the preferred format?
Best regards, Andrew
On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:12 AM Lonero Foundation <loneroassociation at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi, this isn't about the energy efficient argument in regards to
> renewables or mining devices but a better cryptography layer to get the
> most out of your hashing for validation. I do understand the arbitrariness
> of it, but do want to still propose a document. Do I use the Media Wiki
> format on GitHub and just attach it as my proposal?
>
> Best regards, Andrew
>
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:07 AM Devrandom <c1.devrandom at niftybox.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ryan and Andrew,
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 5:42 AM Ryan Grant via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
>>> "Nothing is Cheaper than Proof of Work"
>>> on | 04 Aug 2015
>>>
>>>
>> Just to belabor this a bit, the paper demonstrates that the mining market
>> will tend to expend resources equivalent to miner reward. It does not
>> prove that mining work has to expend *energy* as a primary cost.
>>
>> Some might argue that energy expenditure has negative externalities and
>> that we should move to other resources. I would argue that the negative
>> externalities will go away soon because of the move to renewables, so the
>> point is likely moot.
>>
>>
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