jungly

https://blog.opdup.com

Peer to peer bitcoin mining to resist mining centralisation
Frost Federation: https://github.com/pool2win/frost-federation
Radpool: https://radpool.xyz

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Last Notes

2025-02-26 06:23:08

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I published a design a while back for using DLCs to pay miners, where the federation of mining service providers act as the oracle.
https://www.radpool.xyz/1/payout-mechanism.html
Do you have any links on how ecash is locked into a DLC? i haven't read about that.
Regarding swaps, another idea is to run these swaps on LN. I have been told boltz is doing just that.

2025-02-25 18:51:32

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Hey! great to hear from you. I have been meaning to reach out.
The cool thing is that in this reboot, we are adding transactions with UTXOs. So each p2pool "block" encapsulates a share found by a miner. The share block, as I call it in the code, has a coinbase. This coinbase essentially has an output, which can be "spent" by the miner. The output could have any bitcoin Script in it.
Since the p2pool sharechain has exactly the same transactions as bitcoin, miners can spend their UTXOs.
One approach is to atomically swap a bunch of such outputs for bitcoin.
The buyer of the coinbase outputs is later paid for all these outputs by p2pool from the bitcoin block coinbase.
The share block coinbases are only useful for share accounting. Payouts are directly from there bitcoin block coinbases - based on the share accounting from the sharechain coinbase ownership.
I'll give you my coinbase, if you give me bitcoin now, and you'll get paid when the pool's bitcoin coinbase pays out all the buyers of such coinbases (call them market makers).
We will limit the number of outputs on the bitcoin block coinbase so we can stay within antminer limits. That will limit the number of market makers that can trade on the pool.
There is s brief introduction here https://blog.opdup.com/2025/02/04/rebooting-p2pool-for-bitcoin.html
Having said all that, I want to explore other ideas. Given the pool has transaction support, we should be able to do even cooler things - like use ecash for privacy!

2025-02-11 19:22:34

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The knowledge and experience being built here is invaluable!
Cypherpunks write code, cypherpunks build stuff!
Forza!

2025-02-11 15:53:17

hey @nprofile…fy4z - It is not easy to figure out which repo is used to build the browser extension.
I am looking here: https://github.com/orgs/getAlby/repositories
Thanks for all the excellent work. I am just curious to see the source. 🙏

2025-01-24 16:51:25

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❓ 😕

2024-12-23 01:47:15

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My local baker was upset about losing 2.5% to the payment providers when Italy introduced the "online only payments for every sale over 60 euro". I switched to cash from that day.
If you can't use bitcoin, use cash - became my mantra.

2024-12-20 07:46:28

Ocean validates templates, and therefore Ocean is centralised.
https://x.com/jungly/status/1869975465613767088

2024-12-04 19:48:07

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If bitcoin is already totally unstoppable, then our work is done. We can all go home now. [/sarcasm]
I therefore don't think bitcoin is safe enough yet. We have a lot to do. Mining centralisation is the biggest concern for me of course! Therefore I work on efforts like Braidpool and Radpool.

2024-12-03 12:51:09

Remember the P2Pool servers? You could start mining by simply pointing your stratum url to one of them.
#Radpool service providers are just like that, but with a more formalised role - so they can earn the mining fee from the miners they serve.
Radpool - an open marketplace for pooling services!
https://m.primal.net/MmpX.png

2024-12-01 17:54:36

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मेरी पहली हिंदी पोस्ट, नेस्टर पर।

2024-12-01 17:54:26

Can't find posts in #Hindi here yet। So here we go।
nostr 118n .... let's go!

2024-12-01 16:50:33

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Good point. I'll post news from the slack channel every now and then.
The initial results look very promising! Are you following Eric's tweets on twitter?

2024-12-01 16:14:30

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I actually did spend some time thinking about using FROST for payments over LN, where instead of multi-hop forwarding of HTLC, all parties run a signature scheme together to commit changes in an atomic manner. However, I think instead of FROST, MuSig2 might be a better choice.
I initially thought FROST like threshold signatures could have helped, but the problem is that some parties could collude and cheat the other parties - depending on thresholds etc. Therefore I think MuSig2 can work better. It can replace the need of multi-hop HTLCs. This of course takes away privacy goals of LN.
I did write about it a bit here: https://github.com/pool2win/ln-synctomic/ to log my thoughts. It is kind of a brain dump atm, and probably has some glaring mistakes 😃
I would love to join a brainstorming session/chat around this. I think a lot is possible for L2 payments using either MuSig2 or federations using FROST.

2024-11-29 20:29:39

Collaborative custody will end up empowering control structures rooted in currently existing communities. Control structures that are hierarchical and which take away human freedom.
The principle of voluntary association begs us to stay away from today's societal top down control structures.
Collaborative custody within existing societal structures seems going away from voluntary association.
I am responding to this para from a news article.
"Fedi, which has created a “Community Superapp” that enables collaborative custody of bitcoin"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/frankcorva/2024/11/29/jack-dorsey-backed-african-bitcoin-vc-firm-recursive-capital-closes-raise/

2024-11-29 13:22:26

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I don't remember off the top of my head. Which opcodes do you guys use for the liquid implementation?

2024-11-28 13:24:36

This my third time engaging with #nostr. Each time is been better and more vibrant. 👏🏾👏🏾
A joy to experience the network effect play out in real time.
Here to stay this time.

2024-11-28 13:20:48

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This is exactly the larping by mining pools run by a single entity when they claim to be "decentralised".

2024-11-28 12:23:01

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cashu definitely has a place in the bitcoin ecosystem. critics gonna criticise. Keep building!

2024-11-28 09:23:13

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We should explore decentralised identity here instead. https://www.w3.org/TR/did-core/
OpenID providers are centralised ID providers who devour any data we send to them. Let's try to avoid doing that.
Unless, again, I am missing something.

2024-11-28 09:21:44

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I think this spec will be a mistake. TBH, I am confident once the flaws are pointed out, the spec will be withdrawn. OpenID is just centralised identity. We might be better of exploring DID specs around decentralised identity - https://www.w3.org/TR/did-core/ Harder to build, but lets not talk to OpenID providers!

2024-11-28 08:09:41

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As I understood openid, there needs to be a call back from the open id service to the application - the mint in our case. We should look into how much of a leak this is. Also, please correct me if I am wrong about the call back from open id service provider to the application.

2024-11-27 09:49:58

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Wow. I was curious on the state of affairs, so I got this data set form kaggle and checked the status of validator ofac compliance. Turns out the data is from 2022. It is frustratingly hard to figure out how many validators and relays are non ofac compliant in 2024. The only thing we can do is look at ofac compliant blocks on mevwatch.info.
Ethereum feels like it provides "censorship resistance by obfuscation"

2024-11-27 07:59:07

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The question in my head too.

2024-11-27 07:57:45

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Great news! Do you have a design doc or a repo we can look at yet? Thanks.

2024-11-27 07:56:41

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You should come along to the FROST roundtable. They would love to hear about your work on frostr.

2024-11-27 06:23:46

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That will be much more complicated, from what I understand. let's see where this lands.

2024-11-26 23:46:29

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a big dark cloud is lifted... it was starting to get scary out there

2024-11-26 13:11:10

Bitcoin miners be like
https://m.primal.net/Mhqb.png
So how do you decentralise block template construction?
Possible answer: https://www.radpool.xyz/

2024-11-26 12:09:38

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The second FROST roundtable is happening on Dec 4th. I'll present my progress on FROST Federation https://github.com/pool2win/frost-federation
The federation work is motivated by Radpool - an effort to decentralise mining template construction and FPPS like payouts for miners. https://www.radpool.xyz/
Roundtable announcement: https://x.com/ChristopherA/status/1861047373419491661

2024-11-26 08:06:36

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Today is the first day of the rest of your life.

2024-11-25 21:30:40

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The cool thing, I think, is that we are not inventing new crypto or new distributed systems protocols. There is lot of engineering effort, yes, but we can do it. I believe it is doable. 😃 Have to believe!

2024-11-25 16:54:12

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The threat is legit.

2024-11-25 16:52:08

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tbh, I am using the federation for a mining pool design, where the payout is a DLC contract. The federation acts as an oracle, and voila, the miner gets a unilateral exit, with DLC backed payout guaranteed as long as 1) miner produces hashrate and 2) federation remains honest and signs the attestation.
I have been wracking my brains to see if we can do anything with the federation for an L2 payment mechanism.
I see two problems, a) without PoW how do you keep federation honest and not start sybil attacking b) does it really do anything useful at all, as you asked the question too. I have this uncanny feeling someone somewhere will figure this out. Threshold signatures are way too cool to not give us an interesting future.

2024-11-25 14:03:23

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The innovation has to move off chain

2024-11-25 13:59:01

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> TLDR someone needs to find a kickass off chain (L2 if you like) protocol that could 50x the usage of bitcoin using covenants, *without centralization *, then needs to write code and deploy it on say Liquid and signet.
A Federated L2 could be interesting where the federation is not limited to Liquid where the federation is limited to regulated parties.
Instead, what if we have a federation managed by a threshold signature that could grow to 50-100 parties to help execute state changes for coinpool.
Such an federation is possible using a Schnorr Threshold Signature. I am building one for a mining pool, where the federation membership is backed by PoW. How such a federation can minimise trust without PoW is a question I am thinking about these days.
Meanwhile - unashamed link share to my repo: https://github.com/pool2win/frost-federation

2024-11-25 13:48:19

https://m.primal.net/Mguv.png

2024-11-25 13:45:02

Radpool - a new design to decentralise bitcoin mining.
https://m.primal.net/Mguk.png https://www.radpool.xyz/

2024-10-15 15:27:37

You give me hashes, I'll give you bitcoin.
https://m.primal.net/LWnB.png

2024-08-21 19:44:52

Chris Belcher described a payout construction for P2Pool back in the day that allowed P2Pool to scale. There was a problem, the construction required a central hub. Wth FROST we can replace the centralised hub with a federation. That was an intuition I had for almost a year now. I finally found the time and I think I have it figured out. Will share something soon.
Meanwhile here's Belcher's construction: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2135429.0

2024-08-20 03:40:40

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The second time round you might find yourself doing even a better job.

2024-06-19 08:14:47

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Mining pools right now are running closed source software as a service. We need to work to change this.

2024-06-19 08:13:14

Don't run closed source software. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html

2024-01-29 17:18:18

Braidpool development update:
1. Add Connection management
2. Add channels and queues for broadcasting to connected peers
3. Improvements to config parsing
Lesson: A lot of rust crates have poor test coverage and aren't maintained well.
https://blog.opdup.com/development-updates/2024/01/29/talking-to-peers.html

2024-01-20 10:32:07

Without comment
https://image.nostr.build/5aed8c165ecd2d5ea1d491b1b69408b7a85c96bef4d2c209229c98299e69f5d0.jpg#m=image%2Fjpeg&dim=1024x1024&blurhash=UCDl%5B%5Eoz9FWApxXTRjs.%7EVtRIUWXSiRkaet7&x=7e275241ab9cb2a460912d4928adea1a628f8388b276f2c89d1568c1dc6f8822

2024-01-20 09:51:58

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Now imagine we tell them with braidpool and hashrate futures they can guarantee their future earnings from those miners!
That's the dream. #BuildingBraidpool

2024-01-20 09:46:45

Bitcoin peer to peer mining. #anarchy
We don't need a hierarchy!
https://image.nostr.build/ded90ee11dcee45aa96081592bd2f95122f88c6d6c2a4e4a4049dd2ac55bae5a.jpg#m=image%2Fjpeg&dim=1024x1024&blurhash=UXG%40%7DFsl5GX8%7D%2BNKI%5BoI9%24Rkxraf9hj%5BxsV%5B&x=61066bb59bd5373c8fd7f5d3af718fc482927b1c83ca2533099544b9d394eb33

2024-01-20 09:41:07

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I ran claxyoa for two years. It was great to travel without Google knowing I was travelling
https://calyxos.org/
Aleo, OSM app osmand Is a must have.

2024-01-20 09:36:06

Peer to peer network is anarchy in action.
There is no hierarchy in p2p networks.
That's why I don't like structured peer to peer network protocols - they try to build some sort of hierarchy.

2024-01-19 15:32:08

Slowly but surely, we are building braidpool. Loads of infrastructure and ground work put in place.
Here's this week's dev update
https://blog.opdup.com/development-updates/2024/01/19/rust-fearless-concurrency.html