📅 Original date posted:2015-06-28
📝 Original message:Moving the list to BCC, since this isn't really a technical discussion.
On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 9:37 AM, Venzen Khaosan <venzen at mail.bihthai.net>
wrote:
>
> Bitcoin's exchange rate, as a commodity money floating freely in the
> market, will go up and down according to speculative cycles and we
> should conceptually separate its valuation in fiat terms, from its
> fundamental value which is: mathematical consensus, cryptographic
> transaction security and censorship resistance, etc.
I get the feeling we might be reasoning from different underlying
assumptions, but I don't think you can separate value that way. Those
fundamental properties were chosen to serve the goal of creating a digital
commodity money. They are useful only in as much as they serve ends that
people value. Consensus, security, censorship resistance are valuable
because they are desirable properties for money to have.
If you want to argue that the properties of bitcoin are valuable for other
things besides money, that's fine, but those other uses presumably can be
accomplished with tiny amounts of bitcoin, so don't appreciably increase
demand.
> These values are
> critically reliant on Bitcoin's *degree of decentralization* for them
> to remain true and for Bitcoin to retain its meaning, and, therefore,
> its value. That is what I point out when I say "greater adoption has
> not reflected in the price chart". And that may remain the case for
> evermore because the value is in the protocol, the blockchain and its
> utility and degree of decentralization, not in the chart or the size
> of the user base
>
I think it depends on what you mean by "adoption". Adoption as a
store-of-value must necessarily increase the market price given the
restricted and eventually fixed supply. If we're talking about merchant
adoption as a payment system, or increased transaction volume, the yes,
these things have no direct impact on the price. They only impact the price
indirectly in as much as they encourage further adoption as a
store-of-value.
> I argue that we already know what the value of Bitcoin is. In its
> current form Bitcoin most likely fulfills 80% or 90% of its eventual
> fully evolved value. Increased adoption will not strengthen the
> fundamentals, so let's proceed with scaling that will safeguard
> Bitcoin's fundamental value and implement protections that ensure
> quality of decentralization.
>
Increased adoption does strengthen the fundamentals. The most important
fundamental for money is how many other people standardize on the same
money, and want to hold it. This drives it's price in terms of other
commodities. You want to hold what everyone else wants to hold.
Aaron Voisine
co-founder and CEO
breadwallet.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20150628/1f837fbc/attachment.html>;
Aaron Voisine [ARCHIVE] /
npub18g…knkzl
2023-06-07 15:40:43
in reply to nevent1q…cddw
Author Public Key
npub18gjvug29c4yg46lmplq38e75gg6wn5mn8taytckcsr4jt8p74h3s5knkzlPublished at
2023-06-07 15:40:43Event JSON
{
"id": "bd29bbbcad57cf91a40dadcea7e109abd3a07642ccbc49f42805ab0f9e9985ab",
"pubkey": "3a24ce2145c5488aebfb0fc113e7d44234e9d3733afa45e2d880eb259c3eade3",
"created_at": 1686152443,
"kind": 1,
"tags": [
[
"e",
"6b97b8772e4c3c0f5eb751746063b4217197a3eb7cab2fa3b16264082ad573c4",
"",
"root"
],
[
"e",
"58c1389a72bbf2af0c9c29ef913f5885cac0b39716fd1e2de58622fa8e6bdb32",
"",
"reply"
],
[
"p",
"e714966547dd91a3f320e4323e88e8ce7c046abe8c7e328d48ae1e68503b04f9"
]
],
"content": "📅 Original date posted:2015-06-28\n📝 Original message:Moving the list to BCC, since this isn't really a technical discussion.\n\nOn Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 9:37 AM, Venzen Khaosan \u003cvenzen at mail.bihthai.net\u003e\nwrote:\n\n\u003e\n\u003e Bitcoin's exchange rate, as a commodity money floating freely in the\n\u003e market, will go up and down according to speculative cycles and we\n\u003e should conceptually separate its valuation in fiat terms, from its\n\u003e fundamental value which is: mathematical consensus, cryptographic\n\u003e transaction security and censorship resistance, etc.\n\n\nI get the feeling we might be reasoning from different underlying\nassumptions, but I don't think you can separate value that way. Those\nfundamental properties were chosen to serve the goal of creating a digital\ncommodity money. They are useful only in as much as they serve ends that\npeople value. Consensus, security, censorship resistance are valuable\nbecause they are desirable properties for money to have.\n\nIf you want to argue that the properties of bitcoin are valuable for other\nthings besides money, that's fine, but those other uses presumably can be\naccomplished with tiny amounts of bitcoin, so don't appreciably increase\ndemand.\n\n\n\u003e These values are\n\u003e critically reliant on Bitcoin's *degree of decentralization* for them\n\u003e to remain true and for Bitcoin to retain its meaning, and, therefore,\n\u003e its value. That is what I point out when I say \"greater adoption has\n\u003e not reflected in the price chart\". And that may remain the case for\n\u003e evermore because the value is in the protocol, the blockchain and its\n\u003e utility and degree of decentralization, not in the chart or the size\n\u003e of the user base\n\u003e\n\nI think it depends on what you mean by \"adoption\". Adoption as a\nstore-of-value must necessarily increase the market price given the\nrestricted and eventually fixed supply. If we're talking about merchant\nadoption as a payment system, or increased transaction volume, the yes,\nthese things have no direct impact on the price. They only impact the price\nindirectly in as much as they encourage further adoption as a\nstore-of-value.\n\n\n\u003e I argue that we already know what the value of Bitcoin is. In its\n\u003e current form Bitcoin most likely fulfills 80% or 90% of its eventual\n\u003e fully evolved value. Increased adoption will not strengthen the\n\u003e fundamentals, so let's proceed with scaling that will safeguard\n\u003e Bitcoin's fundamental value and implement protections that ensure\n\u003e quality of decentralization.\n\u003e\n\nIncreased adoption does strengthen the fundamentals. The most important\nfundamental for money is how many other people standardize on the same\nmoney, and want to hold it. This drives it's price in terms of other\ncommodities. You want to hold what everyone else wants to hold.\n\nAaron Voisine\nco-founder and CEO\nbreadwallet.com\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20150628/1f837fbc/attachment.html\u003e",
"sig": "5c110810a6c472a0adf488ebf988ea8ad43e1730adb7b5ba32fbcbe7f46d5d451c224802f68f29bf05570fda64a13d1e4d62ed584fa73b9fda124d66970cbd79"
}