๐
Original date posted:2018-01-08
๐ Original message:Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?
On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?
>>
>
>
> Copay (and all its clones) use it.
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and
>> isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a
>> mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making
>> for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all
>> documentation is written in English.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, ๆจใไธใใใช <kinoshitajona at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is very sad.
>>>>
>>>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.
>>>>
>>>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because
>>>> he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" for
>>>> "amateur"...
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain
>>>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.
>>>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for
>>>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to
>>>> plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well said. Thank you for telling of these experiences. Now please,
>>> letโs put the shoe on the other foot.
>>>
>>> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust
>>> *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this
>>> downโthen later, type it back in:
>>>
>>> ใใใ ใใใ ใใใ ใใใ ใฆใใใ ใใจใ
>>> ใจใใ ใฏใใ ใใใใพ ใปใใ ใใกใใฃใต ใใใค
>>>
>>> (Approximate translation: โWhatever would you do if Bitcoin had been
>>> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?โ)
>>>
>>> No, wait: That is only a 12-word mnemonic. We are probably talking
>>> about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your lifeโs
>>> savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:
>>>
>>> ใซใใ ใใฒใใ ใซใใใ ใฒใใ ใใใใ ใใฎใ ใญใใ ใฏใใใ ใฒใใ
>>> ใจใใ ใใใใใ ใใชใ ใใชใใช ใซใใใใใใ ใใใ ใใใใ ใฟใใ
>>> ใธใใ ใใฒใใ ใใใใฒ ใตใใ ใใใ ใใใใใ ใใใพใ
>>>
>>> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?
>>> No? Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on the
>>> inverse case.
>>>
>>> ----
>>>
>>> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many
>>> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too. Then think
>>> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and
>>> friendsโif BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed to
>>> wrestle with the above phrases as their โmnemonicsโ.
>>>
>>> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called โmnemonicsโ at all. A
>>> โmnemonicโ implies aid to memory. Gibberish in a wholly alien writing
>>> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings. The
>>> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote โaneterโ for โamateurโ, was not
>>> dealing with a *mnemonic*: He was using the worldโs most inefficient means
>>> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.
>>>
>>> ----
>>>
>>> I began this thread with a quite simple request: Is โๆฅๆฌ่ชโ an
>>> appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese
>>> users? And what of the other strings I posted for other languages?
>>>
>>> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the
>>> greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software: Independent
>>> implementations. โ I asked, because obviously, I myself do not speak all
>>> these different languages; and I want to implement them all. *All.*
>>>
>>> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,
>>> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.
>>>
>>> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism
>>> of multi-language support. I opened with a question about other languages,
>>> and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of โEnglish only!โ
>>>
>>> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever
>>> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted
>>> to English. I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard
>>> called โBIP 39โ which has seven non-English wordlists, and four more
>>> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).
>>>
>>> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for
>>> use with that standard.
>>>
>>> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.
>>> I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters. I
>>> thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually
>>> fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC... It should go
>>> without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> nullius at nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C
>>> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
>>> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
>>> โโIf youโre not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.โ
>>> No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.โ โ nullius
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matรญas Alejo Garcia
> @ematiu
> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20180108/a95eac7a/attachment-0001.html>;
Greg Sanders [ARCHIVE] /
npub1jdโฆ3gh0m
2023-06-07 18:09:22
in reply to nevent1qโฆkcq9
Author Public Key
npub1jdl3plz00rvxwc6g2ckemzrgg0amx5wen4kfvs3laxtssxvk9cvsf3gh0mPublished at
2023-06-07 18:09:22Event JSON
{
"id": "29305944ce07f9be7025e4d04f78ff02882e89c0f323d6cde5282f7b06d13983",
"pubkey": "937f10fc4f78d8676348562d9d886843fbb351d99d6c96423fe9970819962e19",
"created_at": 1686161362,
"kind": 1,
"tags": [
[
"e",
"fe0e5e6b2ee549e4de33e0df2c7264cec2b2f2c4c2ea65f37406e83e8f8c5658",
"",
"root"
],
[
"e",
"8853ec1eb53079dd98a90c8ff53b4564a1a53f097ce65e9105cb6d715a199721",
"",
"reply"
],
[
"p",
"a2711d6616d348a3542bb2a791a9e51fcbc7b7d1d20652e5abe16d3e179321df"
]
],
"content": "๐
Original date posted:2018-01-08\n๐ Original message:Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?\n\nOn Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia \u003cematiu at gmail.com\u003e\nwrote:\n\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev \u003c\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e Copay (and all its clones) use it.\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and\n\u003e\u003e isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a\n\u003e\u003e mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making\n\u003e\u003e for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all\n\u003e\u003e documentation is written in English.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev \u003c\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, ๆจใไธใใใช \u003ckinoshitajona at gmail.com\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e This is very sad.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down \"aneter\" for\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \"amateur\"...\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e [...]\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e [...]\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Defining \"everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e plan for\" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Well said. Thank you for telling of these experiences. Now please,\n\u003e\u003e\u003e letโs put the shoe on the other foot.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust\n\u003e\u003e\u003e *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this\n\u003e\u003e\u003e downโthen later, type it back in:\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e ใใใ ใใใ ใใใ ใใใ ใฆใใใ ใใจใ\n\u003e\u003e\u003e ใจใใ ใฏใใ ใใใใพ ใปใใ ใใกใใฃใต ใใใค\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e (Approximate translation: โWhatever would you do if Bitcoin had been\n\u003e\u003e\u003e invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?โ)\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e No, wait: That is only a 12-word mnemonic. We are probably talking\n\u003e\u003e\u003e about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your lifeโs\n\u003e\u003e\u003e savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e ใซใใ ใใฒใใ ใซใใใ ใฒใใ ใใใใ ใใฎใ ใญใใ ใฏใใใ ใฒใใ\n\u003e\u003e\u003e ใจใใ ใใใใใ ใใชใ ใใชใใช ใซใใใใใใ ใใใ ใใใใ ใฟใใ\n\u003e\u003e\u003e ใธใใ ใใฒใใ ใใใใฒ ใตใใ ใใใ ใใใใใ ใใใพใ\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?\n\u003e\u003e\u003e No? Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on the\n\u003e\u003e\u003e inverse case.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e ----\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Japanese people know English and other European languages, too. Then think\n\u003e\u003e\u003e of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and\n\u003e\u003e\u003e friendsโif BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed to\n\u003e\u003e\u003e wrestle with the above phrases as their โmnemonicsโ.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e In such cases, the phrases cannot be called โmnemonicsโ at all. A\n\u003e\u003e\u003e โmnemonicโ implies aid to memory. Gibberish in a wholly alien writing\n\u003e\u003e\u003e system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings. The\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote โaneterโ for โamateurโ, was not\n\u003e\u003e\u003e dealing with a *mnemonic*: He was using the worldโs most inefficient means\n\u003e\u003e\u003e of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e ----\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e I began this thread with a quite simple request: Is โๆฅๆฌ่ชโ an\n\u003e\u003e\u003e appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese\n\u003e\u003e\u003e users? And what of the other strings I posted for other languages?\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the\n\u003e\u003e\u003e greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software: Independent\n\u003e\u003e\u003e implementations. โ I asked, because obviously, I myself do not speak all\n\u003e\u003e\u003e these different languages; and I want to implement them all. *All.*\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,\n\u003e\u003e\u003e nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism\n\u003e\u003e\u003e of multi-language support. I opened with a question about other languages,\n\u003e\u003e\u003e and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of โEnglish only!โ\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever\n\u003e\u003e\u003e implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted\n\u003e\u003e\u003e to English. I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard\n\u003e\u003e\u003e called โBIP 39โ which has seven non-English wordlists, and four more\n\u003e\u003e\u003e pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for\n\u003e\u003e\u003e use with that standard.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters. I\n\u003e\u003e\u003e thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually\n\u003e\u003e\u003e fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC... It should go\n\u003e\u003e\u003e without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e --\n\u003e\u003e\u003e nullius at nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:\n\u003e\u003e\u003e 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)\n\u003e\u003e\u003e โโIf youโre not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.โ\n\u003e\u003e\u003e No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.โ โ nullius\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e\u003e\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e --\n\u003e Matรญas Alejo Garcia\n\u003e @ematiu\n\u003e Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!\n\u003e\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20180108/a95eac7a/attachment-0001.html\u003e",
"sig": "233e69b979d3fac4480eecc2748bc6dee8669b705a9086a2d09de13967ff64d40b804f86d53dfda042867d592bdbf033c22e1e78ea0d2e9739ceddc34fbd259e"
}