📅 Original date posted:2016-07-19
📝 Original message:
Ron OHara <ron.ohara54 at gmail.com> writes:
>> (Now, there's another question about whether stores will actually do
>> this themselves, or outsource to Coinbase etc, just like bitcoin...)
>
> As I understand it, the recipient is still 'pending' settlement to the
> blockchain for any funds they receive.
Only a sense that all bitcoin funds are "pending settlement to the
blockchain".
ie. They're immediately available to use on the lightning network, and
only require a counter-signature to make normal on-chain bitcoin
transactions.
To make this concrete: we've discussed a simple protocol extension where
you would agree with your counterparty to split the funding transaction
in order to pay some of it to a given bitcoin address. That makes it no
worse than a normal bitcoin transfer from a wallet.
(With the usual caveat, that if your channel counterparty is
unresponsive, you will suffer a delay).
>> Kind of. It's better, and worse. If Alice only has one channel, and
>> it's to Bob, Bob can see all the amounts Alice spends. It's fairly easy
>> to make sure Bob can't see the final destination (just the next hop),
>> but he gets an idea of the amounts. Nobody else can see it unless Bob
>> shows them though, so it's not quite the same as on-chain.
> Traffic analysis is a lot more powerful than you seem to realize. Even
> in a huge maze of convoluted transactions with many parties involved,
> traffic analysis of a system that does not deliberately/randomly delay
> interactions easily detects correlations - even when the content is
> encrypted. That is precisely how Bletchley Park worked during WWII for
> at least half of the information it gleaned. Breaking Enigma was not the
> only tactic those guys used.
Yes, I am very aware of the power of traffic analysis, especially if
you're considering an adversary with global view. Timing analysis will
be an ongoing battle, IMHO.
But bear in mind that we're comparing this with bitcoin, which sets a
pretty low bar.
> As I see it, LN with hubs (with routing) really only starts to gain
> major traffic optimization wins, when it has a lot of channels and
> participants..
>
> But how do you get there? A chicken and egg business problem.
I think instant payments have great value. But only if there is someone
to receive the payments :)
I expect LN service to bootstrap slowly along the same lines as bitcoin,
possibly with a killer app to accelerate growth (lightningdice? I have
no idea).
Cheers,
Rusty.
Rusty Russell [ARCHIVE] /
npub1zw…hkhpx
2023-06-09 12:46:22
in reply to nevent1q…n6ef
Author Public Key
npub1zw7cc8z78v6s3grujfvcv3ckpvg6kr0w7nz9yzvwyglyg0qu5sjsqhkhpxPublished at
2023-06-09 12:46:22Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2016-07-19\n📝 Original message:\nRon OHara \u003cron.ohara54 at gmail.com\u003e writes:\n\u003e\u003e (Now, there's another question about whether stores will actually do\n\u003e\u003e this themselves, or outsource to Coinbase etc, just like bitcoin...)\n\u003e\n\u003e As I understand it, the recipient is still 'pending' settlement to the\n\u003e blockchain for any funds they receive.\n\nOnly a sense that all bitcoin funds are \"pending settlement to the\nblockchain\".\n\nie. They're immediately available to use on the lightning network, and\nonly require a counter-signature to make normal on-chain bitcoin\ntransactions.\n\nTo make this concrete: we've discussed a simple protocol extension where\nyou would agree with your counterparty to split the funding transaction\nin order to pay some of it to a given bitcoin address. That makes it no\nworse than a normal bitcoin transfer from a wallet.\n\n(With the usual caveat, that if your channel counterparty is\nunresponsive, you will suffer a delay).\n\n\u003e\u003e Kind of. It's better, and worse. If Alice only has one channel, and\n\u003e\u003e it's to Bob, Bob can see all the amounts Alice spends. It's fairly easy\n\u003e\u003e to make sure Bob can't see the final destination (just the next hop),\n\u003e\u003e but he gets an idea of the amounts. Nobody else can see it unless Bob\n\u003e\u003e shows them though, so it's not quite the same as on-chain.\n\n\u003e Traffic analysis is a lot more powerful than you seem to realize. Even\n\u003e in a huge maze of convoluted transactions with many parties involved,\n\u003e traffic analysis of a system that does not deliberately/randomly delay\n\u003e interactions easily detects correlations - even when the content is\n\u003e encrypted. That is precisely how Bletchley Park worked during WWII for\n\u003e at least half of the information it gleaned. Breaking Enigma was not the\n\u003e only tactic those guys used.\n\nYes, I am very aware of the power of traffic analysis, especially if\nyou're considering an adversary with global view. Timing analysis will\nbe an ongoing battle, IMHO.\n\nBut bear in mind that we're comparing this with bitcoin, which sets a\npretty low bar.\n\n\u003e As I see it, LN with hubs (with routing) really only starts to gain\n\u003e major traffic optimization wins, when it has a lot of channels and\n\u003e participants..\n\u003e\n\u003e But how do you get there? A chicken and egg business problem.\n\nI think instant payments have great value. But only if there is someone\nto receive the payments :)\n\nI expect LN service to bootstrap slowly along the same lines as bitcoin,\npossibly with a killer app to accelerate growth (lightningdice? I have\nno idea).\n\nCheers,\nRusty.",
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