📅 Original date posted:2021-06-30
📝 Original message:
Hey everyone,
just for reference when I was new here (and did not understand the
processes well enough) I proposed a similar idea (called LIP) in 2018 c.f.:
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2018-July/001367.html
I wonder what exactly has changed in the reasoning by roasbeef which I will
repeat here:
*> We already have the equiv of improvement proposals: BOLTs. Historically*
>* new standardization documents are proposed initially as issues or PR's when *
>* ultimately accepted. Why do we need another repo? *
As far as I can tell there was always some form of (invisible?) barrier to
participate in the BOLTs but there are also new BOLTs being offered:
* BOLT 12: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/798
* BOLT 14: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/780
and topics to be included like:
* dual funding
* splicing
* the examples given by Ryan
I don't see how a new repo would reduce that barrier - Actually I think it
would even create more confusion as I for example would not know where
something belongs. That being said I think all the points that are
addressed in Ryan's mail could very well be formalized into BOLTs but maybe
we just need to rethink the current process of the BOLTs to make it more
accessible for new ideas to find their way into the BOLTs? One thing that I
can say from answering lightning-network questions on stackexchange is that
it would certainly help if the BOLTs where referenced on lightning.network
web page and in the whitepaper as the place to be if one wants to learn
about the Lightning Network
with kind regards Rene
On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 4:10 PM Ryan Gentry via Lightning-dev <
lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> The recent thread around zero-conf channels [1] provides an opportunity to
> discuss how the BOLT process handles features and best practices that arise
> in the wild vs. originating within the process itself. Zero-conf channels
> are one of many LN innovations on the app layer that have struggled to make
> their way into the spec. John Carvalho and Bitrefill launched Turbo
> channels in April 2019 [2], Breez posted their solution to the mailing list
> for feedback in August 2020 [3], and we know at least ACINQ and Muun
> (amongst others) have their own implementations. In an ideal world there
> would be a descriptive design document that the app layer implementers had
> collaborated on over the years that the spec group could then pick up and
> merge into the BOLTs now that the feature is deemed spec-worthy.
>
> Over the last couple of months, we have discussed the idea of adding a
> BIP-style process (bLIPs? SPARKs? [4]) on top of the BOLTs with various
> members of the community, and have received positive feedback from both app
> layer and protocol devs. This would not affect the existing BOLT process at
> all, but simply add a place for app layer best practices to be succinctly
> described and organized, especially those that require coordination. These
> features are being built outside of the BOLT process today anyways, so
> ideally a bLIP process would bring them into the fold instead of leaving
> them buried in old ML posts or not documented at all.
>
> Some potential bLIP ideas that people have mentioned include: each lnurl
> variant, on-the-fly channel opens, AMP, dynamic commitments, podcast
> payment metadata, p2p messaging formats, new pathfinding heuristics, remote
> node connection standards, etc.
>
> If the community is interested in moving forward, we've started a branch
> [5] describing such a process. It's based on BIP-0002, so not trying to
> reinvent any wheels. It would be great to have developers from various
> implementations and from the broader app layer ecosystem volunteer to be
> listed as editors (basically the same role as in the BIPs).
>
> Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
>
> Best,
> Ryan
>
> [1]
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-June/003074.html
>
> [2]
> https://www.coindesk.com/bitrefills-thor-turbo-lets-you-get-started-with-bitcoins-lightning-faster
>
> [3]
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-August/002780.html
>
> [4] bLIP = Bitcoin Lightning Improvement Proposal and SPARK =
> Standardization of Protocols at the Request of the Kommunity (h/t fiatjaf)
>
> [5]
> https://github.com/ryanthegentry/lightning-rfc/blob/blip-0001/blips/blip-0001.mediawiki
> _______________________________________________
> Lightning-dev mailing list
> Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev
>
--
https://www.rene-pickhardt.de
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2023-06-09 13:02:48
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Author Public Key
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2021-06-30\n📝 Original message:\nHey everyone,\n\njust for reference when I was new here (and did not understand the\nprocesses well enough) I proposed a similar idea (called LIP) in 2018 c.f.:\nhttps://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2018-July/001367.html\n\n\nI wonder what exactly has changed in the reasoning by roasbeef which I will\nrepeat here:\n\n*\u003e We already have the equiv of improvement proposals: BOLTs. Historically*\n\n\u003e* new standardization documents are proposed initially as issues or PR's when *\n\n\u003e* ultimately accepted. Why do we need another repo? *\n\n\nAs far as I can tell there was always some form of (invisible?) barrier to\nparticipate in the BOLTs but there are also new BOLTs being offered:\n* BOLT 12: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/798\n* BOLT 14: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/780\nand topics to be included like:\n* dual funding\n* splicing\n* the examples given by Ryan\n\nI don't see how a new repo would reduce that barrier - Actually I think it\nwould even create more confusion as I for example would not know where\nsomething belongs. That being said I think all the points that are\naddressed in Ryan's mail could very well be formalized into BOLTs but maybe\nwe just need to rethink the current process of the BOLTs to make it more\naccessible for new ideas to find their way into the BOLTs? One thing that I\ncan say from answering lightning-network questions on stackexchange is that\nit would certainly help if the BOLTs where referenced on lightning.network\nweb page and in the whitepaper as the place to be if one wants to learn\nabout the Lightning Network\n\nwith kind regards Rene\n\nOn Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 4:10 PM Ryan Gentry via Lightning-dev \u003c\nlightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\n\u003e Hi all,\n\u003e\n\u003e The recent thread around zero-conf channels [1] provides an opportunity to\n\u003e discuss how the BOLT process handles features and best practices that arise\n\u003e in the wild vs. originating within the process itself. Zero-conf channels\n\u003e are one of many LN innovations on the app layer that have struggled to make\n\u003e their way into the spec. John Carvalho and Bitrefill launched Turbo\n\u003e channels in April 2019 [2], Breez posted their solution to the mailing list\n\u003e for feedback in August 2020 [3], and we know at least ACINQ and Muun\n\u003e (amongst others) have their own implementations. In an ideal world there\n\u003e would be a descriptive design document that the app layer implementers had\n\u003e collaborated on over the years that the spec group could then pick up and\n\u003e merge into the BOLTs now that the feature is deemed spec-worthy.\n\u003e\n\u003e Over the last couple of months, we have discussed the idea of adding a\n\u003e BIP-style process (bLIPs? SPARKs? [4]) on top of the BOLTs with various\n\u003e members of the community, and have received positive feedback from both app\n\u003e layer and protocol devs. This would not affect the existing BOLT process at\n\u003e all, but simply add a place for app layer best practices to be succinctly\n\u003e described and organized, especially those that require coordination. These\n\u003e features are being built outside of the BOLT process today anyways, so\n\u003e ideally a bLIP process would bring them into the fold instead of leaving\n\u003e them buried in old ML posts or not documented at all.\n\u003e\n\u003e Some potential bLIP ideas that people have mentioned include: each lnurl\n\u003e variant, on-the-fly channel opens, AMP, dynamic commitments, podcast\n\u003e payment metadata, p2p messaging formats, new pathfinding heuristics, remote\n\u003e node connection standards, etc.\n\u003e\n\u003e If the community is interested in moving forward, we've started a branch\n\u003e [5] describing such a process. It's based on BIP-0002, so not trying to\n\u003e reinvent any wheels. It would be great to have developers from various\n\u003e implementations and from the broader app layer ecosystem volunteer to be\n\u003e listed as editors (basically the same role as in the BIPs).\n\u003e\n\u003e Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!\n\u003e\n\u003e Best,\n\u003e Ryan\n\u003e\n\u003e [1]\n\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-June/003074.html\n\u003e\n\u003e [2]\n\u003e https://www.coindesk.com/bitrefills-thor-turbo-lets-you-get-started-with-bitcoins-lightning-faster\n\u003e\n\u003e [3]\n\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-August/002780.html\n\u003e\n\u003e [4] bLIP = Bitcoin Lightning Improvement Proposal and SPARK =\n\u003e Standardization of Protocols at the Request of the Kommunity (h/t fiatjaf)\n\u003e\n\u003e [5]\n\u003e https://github.com/ryanthegentry/lightning-rfc/blob/blip-0001/blips/blip-0001.mediawiki\n\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e Lightning-dev mailing list\n\u003e Lightning-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev\n\u003e\n\n\n-- \nhttps://www.rene-pickhardt.de\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/attachments/20210630/eeeb1aa7/attachment-0001.html\u003e",
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