📅 Original date posted:2017-10-10
📝 Original message:You could technically call myself and Chris 'core developers'. You don't
get to have a fixed rate of Bitcoin and a second way to mint coins at the
same time.
On Oct 10, 2017 1:46 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev" <
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> What?
>
> That is not correct.
>
> There is a fixed amount of Bitcoin, as I said.
>
> The only difference is what chain it is on.
>
> It is precisely because there is a fixed amount that when you
> burn-to-withdraw you mint on another chain.
>
> I will not respond to any more emails unless they’re from core developers.
> Gotta run.
>
> --
> Sent from my mobile device.
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing
> with the NSA.
>
> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 1:23 PM, James Hudon <jameshudon at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > You're asking for newly minted bitcoin to go to you but you burned the
> bitcoin used in the peg. You're effectively losing your money and then
> stealing from the miners to gain it back. The miners had to issue your
> amount of bitcoin 2 times (once for your original bitcoin, again to make
> you whole). Why would they agree to this?
> > --
> > hudon
> >
> >> On Oct 10, 2017, at 13:13, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> It would not change the number of Bitcoins in existence.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Sent from my mobile device.
> >> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
> sharing with the NSA.
> >>
> >>> On Oct 10, 2017, at 12:50 PM, CryptAxe <cryptaxe at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Your method would change the number of Bitcoins in existence. Why?
> >>>
> >>> On Oct 10, 2017 12:47 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev" <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> >>> Is that what passes for a technical argument these days? Sheesh.
> >>>
> >>> Whereas in Drivechain users are forced to give up their coins to a
> single group for whatever sidechains they interact with, the generic
> sharding algo lets them (1) keep their coins, (2) trust whatever group they
> want to trust (the miners of the various sidechains).
> >>>
> >>> Drivechain offers objectively worse security.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Sent from my mobile device.
> >>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
> sharing with the NSA.
> >>>
> >>>> On Oct 10, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Paul Sztorc via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I think this response speaks for itself.
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 10/10/2017 10:09 AM, Tao Effect wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Paul,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I thought it was clear, but apparently you are getting stuck on the
> semantics of the word "burn".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The "burning" applies to the original coins you had.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> When you transfer them back, you get newly minted coins, equivalent
> to the amount you "burned" on the chain you're transferring from ― as
> stated in the OP.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you don't like the word "burn", pick another one.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
> sharing with the NSA.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Oct 10, 2017, at 4:20 AM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Haha, no. Because you "burned" the coins.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Oct 10, 2017 1:20 AM, "Tao Effect" <contact at taoeffect.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>> Paul,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's a two-way peg.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There's nothing preventing transfers back to the main chain.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> They work in the exact same manner.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> Greg
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
> sharing with the NSA.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That is only a one-way peg, not a two-way.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In fact, that is exactly what drivechain does, if one chooses
> parameters for the drivechain that make it impossible for any side-to-main
> transfer to succeed.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> One-way pegs have strong first-mover disadvantages.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Oct 9, 2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev" <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Dear list,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In previous arguments over Drivechain (and Drivechain-like
> proposals) I promised that better scaling proposals ― that do not sacrifice
> Bitcoin's security ― would come along.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I planned to do a detailed writeup, but have decided to just send
> off this email with what I have, because I'm unlikely to have time to write
> up a detailed proposal.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The idea is very simple (and by no means novel*), and I'm sure
> others have mentioned either exactly it, or similar ideas (e.g. burning
> coins) before.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is a generic sharding protocol for all blockchains, including
> Bitcoin.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Users simply say: "My coins on Chain A are going to be sent to
> Chain B".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Then they burn the coins on Chain A, and create a minting
> transaction on Chain B. The details of how to ensure that coins do not get
> lost needs to be worked out, but I'm fairly certain the folks on this list
> can figure out those details.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> - Thin clients, nodes, and miners, can all very easily verify that
> said action took place, and therefore accept the "newly minted" coins on B
> as valid.
> >>>>>>> - Users client software now also knows where to look for the other
> coins (if for some reason it needs to).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This doesn't even need much modification to the Bitcoin protocol
> as most of the verification is done client-side.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It is fully decentralized, and there's no need to give our
> ownership of our coins to miners to get scale.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My sincere apologies if this has been brought up before (in which
> case, I would be very grateful for a link to the proposal).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>> Greg Slepak
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> * This idea is similar in spirit to Interledger.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
> sharing with the NSA.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> >>>>>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >>>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> >>>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> >>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> >> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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CryptAxe [ARCHIVE] /
npub12p…js309
2023-06-07 18:07:04
in reply to nevent1q…ycq4
Author Public Key
npub12p7jzesdg8kxdg8rujr20znnd868fgugczkwh4cyxwa6gnxj5sxsnjs309Published at
2023-06-07 18:07:04Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2017-10-10\n📝 Original message:You could technically call myself and Chris 'core developers'. You don't\nget to have a fixed rate of Bitcoin and a second way to mint coins at the\nsame time.\n\nOn Oct 10, 2017 1:46 PM, \"Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev\" \u003c\nbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\n\u003e What?\n\u003e\n\u003e That is not correct.\n\u003e\n\u003e There is a fixed amount of Bitcoin, as I said.\n\u003e\n\u003e The only difference is what chain it is on.\n\u003e\n\u003e It is precisely because there is a fixed amount that when you\n\u003e burn-to-withdraw you mint on another chain.\n\u003e\n\u003e I will not respond to any more emails unless they’re from core developers.\n\u003e Gotta run.\n\u003e\n\u003e --\n\u003e Sent from my mobile device.\n\u003e Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing\n\u003e with the NSA.\n\u003e\n\u003e \u003e On Oct 10, 2017, at 1:23 PM, James Hudon \u003cjameshudon at gmail.com\u003e wrote:\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e You're asking for newly minted bitcoin to go to you but you burned the\n\u003e bitcoin used in the peg. You're effectively losing your money and then\n\u003e stealing from the miners to gain it back. The miners had to issue your\n\u003e amount of bitcoin 2 times (once for your original bitcoin, again to make\n\u003e you whole). Why would they agree to this?\n\u003e \u003e --\n\u003e \u003e hudon\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e On Oct 10, 2017, at 13:13, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev \u003c\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e It would not change the number of Bitcoins in existence.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e --\n\u003e \u003e\u003e Sent from my mobile device.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also\n\u003e sharing with the NSA.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e On Oct 10, 2017, at 12:50 PM, CryptAxe \u003ccryptaxe at gmail.com\u003e wrote:\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Your method would change the number of Bitcoins in existence. Why?\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e On Oct 10, 2017 12:47 PM, \"Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev\" \u003c\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Is that what passes for a technical argument these days? Sheesh.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Whereas in Drivechain users are forced to give up their coins to a\n\u003e single group for whatever sidechains they interact with, the generic\n\u003e sharding algo lets them (1) keep their coins, (2) trust whatever group they\n\u003e want to trust (the miners of the various sidechains).\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Drivechain offers objectively worse security.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e --\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Sent from my mobile device.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also\n\u003e sharing with the NSA.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e On Oct 10, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Paul Sztorc via bitcoin-dev \u003c\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e I think this response speaks for itself.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e On 10/10/2017 10:09 AM, Tao Effect wrote:\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Hi Paul,\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e I thought it was clear, but apparently you are getting stuck on the\n\u003e semantics of the word \"burn\".\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e The \"burning\" applies to the original coins you had.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e When you transfer them back, you get newly minted coins, equivalent\n\u003e to the amount you \"burned\" on the chain you're transferring from ― as\n\u003e stated in the OP.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e If you don't like the word \"burn\", pick another one.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e --\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also\n\u003e sharing with the NSA.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e On Oct 10, 2017, at 4:20 AM, Paul Sztorc \u003ctruthcoin at gmail.com\u003e\n\u003e wrote:\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Haha, no. Because you \"burned\" the coins.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e On Oct 10, 2017 1:20 AM, \"Tao Effect\" \u003ccontact at taoeffect.com\u003e\n\u003e wrote:\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Paul,\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e It's a two-way peg.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e There's nothing preventing transfers back to the main chain.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e They work in the exact same manner.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Cheers,\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Greg\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e --\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also\n\u003e sharing with the NSA.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul Sztorc \u003ctruthcoin at gmail.com\u003e\n\u003e wrote:\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e That is only a one-way peg, not a two-way.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e In fact, that is exactly what drivechain does, if one chooses\n\u003e parameters for the drivechain that make it impossible for any side-to-main\n\u003e transfer to succeed.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e One-way pegs have strong first-mover disadvantages.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Paul\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e On Oct 9, 2017 9:24 PM, \"Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev\" \u003c\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Dear list,\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e In previous arguments over Drivechain (and Drivechain-like\n\u003e proposals) I promised that better scaling proposals ― that do not sacrifice\n\u003e Bitcoin's security ― would come along.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e I planned to do a detailed writeup, but have decided to just send\n\u003e off this email with what I have, because I'm unlikely to have time to write\n\u003e up a detailed proposal.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e The idea is very simple (and by no means novel*), and I'm sure\n\u003e others have mentioned either exactly it, or similar ideas (e.g. burning\n\u003e coins) before.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e This is a generic sharding protocol for all blockchains, including\n\u003e Bitcoin.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Users simply say: \"My coins on Chain A are going to be sent to\n\u003e Chain B\".\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Then they burn the coins on Chain A, and create a minting\n\u003e transaction on Chain B. The details of how to ensure that coins do not get\n\u003e lost needs to be worked out, but I'm fairly certain the folks on this list\n\u003e can figure out those details.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e - Thin clients, nodes, and miners, can all very easily verify that\n\u003e said action took place, and therefore accept the \"newly minted\" coins on B\n\u003e as valid.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e - Users client software now also knows where to look for the other\n\u003e coins (if for some reason it needs to).\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e This doesn't even need much modification to the Bitcoin protocol\n\u003e as most of the verification is done client-side.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e It is fully decentralized, and there's no need to give our\n\u003e ownership of our coins to miners to get scale.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e My sincere apologies if this has been brought up before (in which\n\u003e case, I would be very grateful for a link to the proposal).\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Cheers,\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Greg Slepak\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e * This idea is similar in spirit to Interledger.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e --\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also\n\u003e sharing with the NSA.\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e \u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e \u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e \u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e \u003e\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20171010/2693944e/attachment-0001.html\u003e",
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