📅 Original date posted:2014-04-21
📝 Original message:If this policy of mining empty blocks upon new block headers before
downloading and verifying the blocks became the standard, then wouldn't the
marginal orphan probability per transaction vanish? It seems like this
could be a way to seriously reduce transaction fees.
On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 10:44 PM, Daniel Lidstrom <lidstrom83 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block headers
>> and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is extremely
>> harmful to the security of Bitcoin.
>
>
> If it's only during the few seconds that it takes to to verify the block,
> then would this really be that big of a deal? E.g. even if all miners did
> this, a 10 second delay would only yield an average of a couple blind/empty
> blocks per day.
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Peter Todd <pete at petertodd.org> wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA256
>>
>> That is mistaken: you can't mine on top of just a block header, leaving
>> small miners disadvantaged as they are earning no profit while they wait
>> for the information to validate the block and update their UTXO sets. This
>> results in the same problem as before, as the large pools who mine most
>> blocks can validate either instantly - the self-mine case - or more quickly
>> than the smaller miners.
>>
>> Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block
>> headers and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is
>> extremely harmful to the security of Bitcoin.
>>
>>
>> On 20 April 2014 23:58:58 GMT-04:00, Mark Friedenbach <mark at monetize.io>
>> wrote:
>> >As soon as we switch to headers
>> >first - which will be soon - there will be no difference in propagation
>> >time no matter how large the block is. Only 80 bites will be required
>> >to
>> >propagate the block header which establishes priority for when the
>> >block is
>> >fully validated.
>> >On Apr 20, 2014 6:56 PM, "Jonathan Levin"
>> ><jonathan.levin at sant.ox.ac.uk>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi all,
>> >>
>> >> I am a post-graduate economist writing a paper on the incentives of
>> >> mining. Even though this issue has been debated in the forums, I
>> >think it
>> >> is important to get a sense of the magnitude of the incentives at
>> >play and
>> >> determine what implications this has for the transaction fee market.
>> >>
>> >> As it has been pointed out before the marginal cost for miners does
>> >not
>> >> stem from the private cost of the miner validating the signature and
>> >> including it in the list of transactions in the block but rather the
>> >> increased probability that the block will be orphaned as a result of
>> >slower
>> >> propagation. Gavin did some back of the envelope worst case
>> >calculations
>> >> but these overstated the effect of propagation delay. The reason
>> >being the
>> >> 80ms additional time to reach 50% of the network is spread throughout
>> >the
>> >> time that it takes to reach 50% of the network. During this time
>> >miners are
>> >> notified about the block and treat it as the longest chain and hence
>> >are no
>> >> longer mining with the aim to produce a competing block.
>> >>
>> >> I am looking to calculate the change in the curvature of the
>> >probability
>> >> mass function that a block hears about my block in any given second
>> >as a
>> >> function of the block size. Although there is likely to be
>> >significant
>> >> noise here, there seems to be some stable linear relationships with
>> >the
>> >> time that it takes to reach different quartiles. Has anyone done
>> >this? I
>> >> have used some empirical data that I am happy to share but ideally I
>> >would
>> >> like analytical solutions.
>> >>
>> >> Following Peter Todd, I also find the concerning result that
>> >propagation
>> >> delays results in increasing returns to higher shares of the hashing
>> >power.
>> >> Indeed it may well be in the interest of large pools to publish large
>> >> blocks to increase propagation delays on the network which would
>> >increase
>> >> orphan rates particularly for small miners and miners that have not
>> >> invested in sufficient bandwidth / connectivity. If a small miner
>> >hears
>> >> about a block after 4.5 seconds on average there is a 0.7% chance
>> >that
>> >> there is already a block in circulation. Large miners can increase
>> >the
>> >> time that it takes for small miners to hear about blocks by
>> >increasing the
>> >> size of their blocks. For example if the time that it takes for a
>> >small
>> >> miner to hear about the block goes to 12 seconds there is a 2 percent
>> >> chance there is already a block in circulation for the small miner.
>> >There
>> >> is also a 1.2% chance that there will be a competing block published
>> >after
>> >> a small miner propagates in the time that it gets to full
>> >propagation. Am I
>> >> getting this right that the probability of a miner’s block being
>> >orphaned
>> >> is comprised of the probability that the miner was not the first to
>> >find a
>> >> valid block and the probability that given they are first, someone
>> >else in
>> >> the absence of hearing about it finds a competing valid block.
>> >>
>> >> One question is: Are orphans probabilistic and only resolved after
>> >hearing
>> >> about a new block that lengthens the chain or is there a way to know
>> >in
>> >> advance? Is it frowned upon to mine on top of a block that you have
>> >just
>> >> found even though it is very likely going to end up an orphan?
>> >>
>> >> Would be happy to share the draft form of the paper and receive any
>> >> feedback.
>> >>
>> >> Finally, at coinometrics we are working on a modified client to
>> >capture
>> >> information on network propagation and would invite any suggestions
>> >of any
>> >> other useful statistics that would be useful in the development of
>> >software.
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >>
>> >> Jonathan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 21 Apr 2014, at 01:16, <
>> >> bitcoin-development-request at lists.sourceforge.net> <
>> >> bitcoin-development-request at lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submissions to
>> >> > bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> >
>> >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >> >
>> >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> >> > bitcoin-development-request at lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> >
>> >> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> >> > bitcoin-development-owner at lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> >
>> >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> >> > than "Re: Contents of Bitcoin-development digest..."
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Today's Topics:
>> >> >
>> >> > 1. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Oliver Egginger)
>> >> > 2. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Christophe Biocca)
>> >> > 3. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Gmail)
>> >> > 4. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Mike Caldwell)
>> >> > 5. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Justin A)
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > Message: 1
>> >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:43:24 +0200
>> >> > From: Oliver Egginger <bitcoin at olivere.de>
>> >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
>> >> > To: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net>
>> >> > Message-ID: <5354154C.1080908 at olivere.de>
>> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> >> >
>> >> > Hello,
>> >> >
>> >> > just my two 'cents':
>> >> >
>> >> > Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when
>> >they
>> >> > mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use
>> >> > except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
>> >> > established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.
>> >> >
>> >> > - oliver
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > Message: 2
>> >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:19:38 -0400
>> >> > From: Christophe Biocca <christophe.biocca at gmail.com>
>> >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
>> >> > To: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net>
>> >> > Message-ID:
>> >> > <CANOOu=9=
>> >> TAnaCuyh_P2GqHaguyY39xjhj84HSA_x+6F4MOqM_A at mail.gmail.com>
>> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> >> >
>> >> > Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with
>> >slang
>> >> > for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means
>> >"louse"
>> >> > in Turkish as well.
>> >> >
>> >> > Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all
>> >the
>> >> > short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger
>> ><bitcoin at olivere.de>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >> Hello,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> just my two 'cents':
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when
>> >they
>> >> >> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common
>> >use
>> >> >> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
>> >> >> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - oliver
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>>
>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>> >and
>> >> their
>> >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book
>> >today!
>> >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >> >> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > Message: 3
>> >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:32:26 -0500
>> >> > From: Gmail <will.yager at gmail.com>
>> >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
>> >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net>
>> >> > Message-ID: <B687D4AD-263F-4594-BE7A-FF238B8DF7AF at gmail.com>
>> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> >> >
>> >> > People in the Bitcoin community are sometimes resistant to the idea
>> >of
>> >> using the word "credit" as a unit of Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is not
>> >a
>> >> credit-based system.
>> >> >
>> >> > However, given that the average person has close to no
>> >understanding of
>> >> what "credit" means, and probably no concern for the distinction even
>> >if
>> >> they do know, it may be wise to use the futuristic and easily
>> >> understandable "credit" as our human-friendly unit.
>> >> >
>> >> > Do others agree that "credits" as a unit of account has a desirable
>> >> futuristic connotation?
>> >> >
>> >> > Will
>> >> >
>> >> > -------------- next part --------------
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>> >> > Desc: not available
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > Message: 4
>> >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:28:34 -0400
>> >> > From: Mike Caldwell <mcaldwell at swipeclock.com>
>> >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
>> >> > To: Christophe Biocca <christophe.biocca at gmail.com>
>> >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net>
>> >> > Message-ID: <4098C706-D67F-474E-9C13-E4C8F56B41ED at swipeclock.com>
>> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> >> >
>> >> > By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a
>> >cultural
>> >> reference in the name. For example "satoshi" would be a reference to
>> >> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless of
>> >who
>> >> Satoshi turns out to be.
>> >> >
>> >> > Mike
>> >> >
>> >> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca" <
>> >> christophe.biocca at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with
>> >slang
>> >> >> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means
>> >"louse"
>> >> >> in Turkish as well.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all
>> >the
>> >> >> short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger
>> ><bitcoin at olivere.de>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> Hello,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> just my two 'cents':
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when
>> >they
>> >> >>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common
>> >use
>> >> >>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
>> >> >>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> - oliver
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >>
>>
>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> >> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>> >and
>> >> their
>> >> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> >> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book
>> >today!
>> >> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >> >>> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>>
>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>> >and
>> >> their
>> >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book
>> >today!
>> >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >> >> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > Message: 5
>> >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:16:35 -0400
>> >> > From: Justin A <allport at gmail.com>
>> >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
>> >> > To: Mike Caldwell <mcaldwell at swipeclock.com>
>> >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net>
>> >> > Message-ID:
>> >> > <
>> >> CAK2MuX3GufxU_AH0Kaw3pUkzgX_agok86ahCh+7r96UkxZwneQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >> >
>> >> > <delurk>
>> >> >
>> >> > What about "ubit", pronounced "YOU-bit", representing 1e-6 bitcoin?
>> >Easy
>> >> to
>> >> > say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the required
>> >2
>> >> > decimal places for the marginally numerate.. What more could one
>> >want?
>> >> >
>> >> > </delurk>
>> >> >
>> >> > Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southern
>> >> hemisphere
>> >> > winter if I can learn enough.
>> >> > On Apr 20, 2014 4:32 PM, "Mike Caldwell" <mcaldwell at swipeclock.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a
>> >cultural
>> >> >> reference in the name. For example "satoshi" would be a reference
>> >to
>> >> >> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless
>> >of who
>> >> >> Satoshi turns out to be.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Mike
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca" <
>> >> >> christophe.biocca at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with
>> >slang
>> >> >>> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means
>> >"louse"
>> >> >>> in Turkish as well.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all
>> >the
>> >> >>> short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger
>> ><bitcoin at olivere.de>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>> Hello,
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> just my two 'cents':
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when
>> >they
>> >> >>>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common
>> >use
>> >> >>>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
>> >> >>>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> - oliver
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>>
>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> >> >>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>> >and
>> >> >> their
>> >> >>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> >> >>>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book
>> >today!
>> >> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >> >>>> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>>
>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> >> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>> >and
>> >> >> their
>> >> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> >> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book
>> >today!
>> >> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >> >>> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>>
>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>> >and
>> >> their
>> >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book
>> >today!
>> >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >> >> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >> >>
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>> >> >
>> >>
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>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >> > ------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >> > Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > End of Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 35, Issue 72
>> >> > ***************************************************
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform
>> >> Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software
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>> >> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
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>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform
>> Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software
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Daniel Lidstrom [ARCHIVE] /
npub166…hqvvt
2023-06-07 15:19:10
in reply to nevent1q…vs0s
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2014-04-21\n📝 Original message:If this policy of mining empty blocks upon new block headers before\ndownloading and verifying the blocks became the standard, then wouldn't the\nmarginal orphan probability per transaction vanish? It seems like this\ncould be a way to seriously reduce transaction fees.\n\n\nOn Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 10:44 PM, Daniel Lidstrom \u003clidstrom83 at gmail.com\u003ewrote:\n\n\u003e\n\u003e Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block headers\n\u003e\u003e and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is extremely\n\u003e\u003e harmful to the security of Bitcoin.\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e If it's only during the few seconds that it takes to to verify the block,\n\u003e then would this really be that big of a deal? E.g. even if all miners did\n\u003e this, a 10 second delay would only yield an average of a couple blind/empty\n\u003e blocks per day.\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Peter Todd \u003cpete at petertodd.org\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\n\u003e\u003e -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\n\u003e\u003e Hash: SHA256\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e That is mistaken: you can't mine on top of just a block header, leaving\n\u003e\u003e small miners disadvantaged as they are earning no profit while they wait\n\u003e\u003e for the information to validate the block and update their UTXO sets. This\n\u003e\u003e results in the same problem as before, as the large pools who mine most\n\u003e\u003e blocks can validate either instantly - the self-mine case - or more quickly\n\u003e\u003e than the smaller miners.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block\n\u003e\u003e headers and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is\n\u003e\u003e extremely harmful to the security of Bitcoin.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e On 20 April 2014 23:58:58 GMT-04:00, Mark Friedenbach \u003cmark at monetize.io\u003e\n\u003e\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e \u003eAs soon as we switch to headers\n\u003e\u003e \u003efirst - which will be soon - there will be no difference in propagation\n\u003e\u003e \u003etime no matter how large the block is. Only 80 bites will be required\n\u003e\u003e \u003eto\n\u003e\u003e \u003epropagate the block header which establishes priority for when the\n\u003e\u003e \u003eblock is\n\u003e\u003e \u003efully validated.\n\u003e\u003e \u003eOn Apr 20, 2014 6:56 PM, \"Jonathan Levin\"\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003cjonathan.levin at sant.ox.ac.uk\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003ewrote:\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Hi all,\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e I am a post-graduate economist writing a paper on the incentives of\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e mining. Even though this issue has been debated in the forums, I\n\u003e\u003e \u003ethink it\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e is important to get a sense of the magnitude of the incentives at\n\u003e\u003e \u003eplay and\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e determine what implications this has for the transaction fee market.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e As it has been pointed out before the marginal cost for miners does\n\u003e\u003e \u003enot\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e stem from the private cost of the miner validating the signature and\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e including it in the list of transactions in the block but rather the\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e increased probability that the block will be orphaned as a result of\n\u003e\u003e \u003eslower\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e propagation. Gavin did some back of the envelope worst case\n\u003e\u003e \u003ecalculations\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e but these overstated the effect of propagation delay. The reason\n\u003e\u003e \u003ebeing the\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e 80ms additional time to reach 50% of the network is spread throughout\n\u003e\u003e \u003ethe\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e time that it takes to reach 50% of the network. During this time\n\u003e\u003e \u003eminers are\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e notified about the block and treat it as the longest chain and hence\n\u003e\u003e \u003eare no\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e longer mining with the aim to produce a competing block.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e I am looking to calculate the change in the curvature of the\n\u003e\u003e \u003eprobability\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e mass function that a block hears about my block in any given second\n\u003e\u003e \u003eas a\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e function of the block size. Although there is likely to be\n\u003e\u003e \u003esignificant\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e noise here, there seems to be some stable linear relationships with\n\u003e\u003e \u003ethe\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e time that it takes to reach different quartiles. Has anyone done\n\u003e\u003e \u003ethis? I\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e have used some empirical data that I am happy to share but ideally I\n\u003e\u003e \u003ewould\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e like analytical solutions.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Following Peter Todd, I also find the concerning result that\n\u003e\u003e \u003epropagation\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e delays results in increasing returns to higher shares of the hashing\n\u003e\u003e \u003epower.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Indeed it may well be in the interest of large pools to publish large\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e blocks to increase propagation delays on the network which would\n\u003e\u003e \u003eincrease\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e orphan rates particularly for small miners and miners that have not\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e invested in sufficient bandwidth / connectivity. If a small miner\n\u003e\u003e \u003ehears\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e about a block after 4.5 seconds on average there is a 0.7% chance\n\u003e\u003e \u003ethat\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e there is already a block in circulation. Large miners can increase\n\u003e\u003e \u003ethe\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e time that it takes for small miners to hear about blocks by\n\u003e\u003e \u003eincreasing the\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e size of their blocks. For example if the time that it takes for a\n\u003e\u003e \u003esmall\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e miner to hear about the block goes to 12 seconds there is a 2 percent\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e chance there is already a block in circulation for the small miner.\n\u003e\u003e \u003eThere\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e is also a 1.2% chance that there will be a competing block published\n\u003e\u003e \u003eafter\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e a small miner propagates in the time that it gets to full\n\u003e\u003e \u003epropagation. Am I\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e getting this right that the probability of a miner’s block being\n\u003e\u003e \u003eorphaned\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e is comprised of the probability that the miner was not the first to\n\u003e\u003e \u003efind a\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e valid block and the probability that given they are first, someone\n\u003e\u003e \u003eelse in\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e the absence of hearing about it finds a competing valid block.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e One question is: Are orphans probabilistic and only resolved after\n\u003e\u003e \u003ehearing\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e about a new block that lengthens the chain or is there a way to know\n\u003e\u003e \u003ein\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e advance? Is it frowned upon to mine on top of a block that you have\n\u003e\u003e \u003ejust\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e found even though it is very likely going to end up an orphan?\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Would be happy to share the draft form of the paper and receive any\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e feedback.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Finally, at coinometrics we are working on a modified client to\n\u003e\u003e \u003ecapture\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e information on network propagation and would invite any suggestions\n\u003e\u003e \u003eof any\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e other useful statistics that would be useful in the development of\n\u003e\u003e \u003esoftware.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Best,\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Jonathan\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e On 21 Apr 2014, at 01:16, \u003c\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e bitcoin-development-request at lists.sourceforge.net\u003e \u003c\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e bitcoin-development-request at lists.sourceforge.net\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submissions to\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003ehttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e bitcoin-development-request at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e You can reach the person managing the list at\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e bitcoin-development-owner at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e than \"Re: Contents of Bitcoin-development digest...\"\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Today's Topics:\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e 1. Re: \"bits\": Unit of account (Oliver Egginger)\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e 2. Re: \"bits\": Unit of account (Christophe Biocca)\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e 3. Re: \"bits\": Unit of account (Gmail)\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e 4. Re: \"bits\": Unit of account (Mike Caldwell)\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e 5. Re: \"bits\": Unit of account (Justin A)\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Message: 1\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:43:24 +0200\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e From: Oliver Egginger \u003cbitcoin at olivere.de\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] \"bits\": Unit of account\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e To: Bitcoin Development \u003cbitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Message-ID: \u003c5354154C.1080908 at olivere.de\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Hello,\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e just my two 'cents':\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when\n\u003e\u003e \u003ethey\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e - oliver\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e ------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Message: 2\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:19:38 -0400\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e From: Christophe Biocca \u003cchristophe.biocca at gmail.com\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] \"bits\": Unit of account\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e To: Bitcoin Development \u003cbitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Message-ID:\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e \u003cCANOOu=9=\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e TAnaCuyh_P2GqHaguyY39xjhj84HSA_x+6F4MOqM_A at mail.gmail.com\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Culturally neutral? \"bit\" in French phonetically collides with\n\u003e\u003e \u003eslang\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e for phallus (\"bitte\", with a silent \"e\"). Apparently it means\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\"louse\"\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e in Turkish as well.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all\n\u003e\u003e \u003ethe\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003cbitcoin at olivere.de\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Hello,\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e just my two 'cents':\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when\n\u003e\u003e \u003ethey\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common\n\u003e\u003e \u003euse\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e - oliver\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \"Graph Databases\" is the definitive new guide to graph databases\n\u003e\u003e \u003eand\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e their\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e this first edition is now available. Download your free book\n\u003e\u003e \u003etoday!\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e ------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Message: 3\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:32:26 -0500\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e From: Gmail \u003cwill.yager at gmail.com\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] \"bits\": Unit of account\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Cc: Bitcoin Development \u003cbitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Message-ID: \u003cB687D4AD-263F-4594-BE7A-FF238B8DF7AF at gmail.com\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e People in the Bitcoin community are sometimes resistant to the idea\n\u003e\u003e \u003eof\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e using the word \"credit\" as a unit of Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is not\n\u003e\u003e \u003ea\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e credit-based system.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e However, given that the average person has close to no\n\u003e\u003e \u003eunderstanding of\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e what \"credit\" means, and probably no concern for the distinction even\n\u003e\u003e \u003eif\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e they do know, it may be wise to use the futuristic and easily\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e understandable \"credit\" as our human-friendly unit.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Do others agree that \"credits\" as a unit of account has a desirable\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e futuristic connotation?\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Will\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e -------------- next part --------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e A non-text attachment was scrubbed...\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Name: smime.p7s\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Type: application/pkcs7-signature\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Size: 1593 bytes\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Desc: not available\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e ------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Message: 4\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:28:34 -0400\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e From: Mike Caldwell \u003cmcaldwell at swipeclock.com\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] \"bits\": Unit of account\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e To: Christophe Biocca \u003cchristophe.biocca at gmail.com\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Cc: Bitcoin Development \u003cbitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Message-ID: \u003c4098C706-D67F-474E-9C13-E4C8F56B41ED at swipeclock.com\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a\n\u003e\u003e \u003ecultural\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e reference in the name. For example \"satoshi\" would be a reference to\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless of\n\u003e\u003e \u003ewho\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Satoshi turns out to be.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Mike\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Sent from my iPhone\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, \"Christophe Biocca\" \u003c\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e christophe.biocca at gmail.com\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Culturally neutral? \"bit\" in French phonetically collides with\n\u003e\u003e \u003eslang\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e for phallus (\"bitte\", with a silent \"e\"). Apparently it means\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\"louse\"\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e in Turkish as well.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all\n\u003e\u003e \u003ethe\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003cbitcoin at olivere.de\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Hello,\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e just my two 'cents':\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when\n\u003e\u003e \u003ethey\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common\n\u003e\u003e \u003euse\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e - oliver\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e \"Graph Databases\" is the definitive new guide to graph databases\n\u003e\u003e \u003eand\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e their\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e this first edition is now available. Download your free book\n\u003e\u003e \u003etoday!\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \"Graph Databases\" is the definitive new guide to graph databases\n\u003e\u003e \u003eand\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e their\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e this first edition is now available. Download your free book\n\u003e\u003e \u003etoday!\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e ------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Message: 5\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:16:35 -0400\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e From: Justin A \u003callport at gmail.com\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] \"bits\": Unit of account\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e To: Mike Caldwell \u003cmcaldwell at swipeclock.com\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Cc: Bitcoin Development \u003cbitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Message-ID:\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e \u003c\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e CAK2MuX3GufxU_AH0Kaw3pUkzgX_agok86ahCh+7r96UkxZwneQ at mail.gmail.com\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e \u003cdelurk\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e What about \"ubit\", pronounced \"YOU-bit\", representing 1e-6 bitcoin?\n\u003e\u003e \u003eEasy\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e to\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the required\n\u003e\u003e \u003e2\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e decimal places for the marginally numerate.. What more could one\n\u003e\u003e \u003ewant?\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e \u003c/delurk\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southern\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e hemisphere\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e winter if I can learn enough.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e On Apr 20, 2014 4:32 PM, \"Mike Caldwell\" \u003cmcaldwell at swipeclock.com\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a\n\u003e\u003e \u003ecultural\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e reference in the name. For example \"satoshi\" would be a reference\n\u003e\u003e \u003eto\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless\n\u003e\u003e \u003eof who\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Satoshi turns out to be.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Mike\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Sent from my iPhone\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, \"Christophe Biocca\" \u003c\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e christophe.biocca at gmail.com\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Culturally neutral? \"bit\" in French phonetically collides with\n\u003e\u003e \u003eslang\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e for phallus (\"bitte\", with a silent \"e\"). Apparently it means\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\"louse\"\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e in Turkish as well.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all\n\u003e\u003e \u003ethe\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003cbitcoin at olivere.de\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Hello,\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e just my two 'cents':\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when\n\u003e\u003e \u003ethey\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common\n\u003e\u003e \u003euse\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e - oliver\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \"Graph Databases\" is the definitive new guide to graph databases\n\u003e\u003e \u003eand\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e their\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e this first edition is now available. Download your free book\n\u003e\u003e \u003etoday!\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e \"Graph Databases\" is the definitive new guide to graph databases\n\u003e\u003e \u003eand\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e their\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e this first edition is now available. Download your free book\n\u003e\u003e \u003etoday!\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \"Graph Databases\" is the definitive new guide to graph databases\n\u003e\u003e \u003eand\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e their\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e this first edition is now available. Download your free book\n\u003e\u003e \u003etoday!\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e -------------- next part --------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e An HTML attachment was scrubbed...\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e ------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration\n\u003e\u003e \u003ePlatform\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e ------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e End of Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 35, Issue 72\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e \u003e ***************************************************\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003eStart Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform\n\u003e\u003e \u003eBuild your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software\n\u003e\u003e \u003eJava Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready\n\u003e\u003e \u003eGet Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform\n\u003e\u003e \u003ehttp://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e_______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e \u003eBitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e\u003e \u003eBitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e \u003ehttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\n\u003e\u003e Version: APG v1.1.1\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e iQFQBAEBCAA6BQJTVJlDMxxQZXRlciBUb2RkIChsb3cgc2VjdXJpdHkga2V5KSA8\n\u003e\u003e cGV0ZUBwZXRlcnRvZGQub3JnPgAKCRAZnIM7qOfwhTbNB/4lHTsUN/iee7H0UyBn\n\u003e\u003e +TDRgf1BSoUx9HP+vtwXzS0JkVQoxoB5x4Pls+ex7qIXGNxdG9EPYi1RqQ5A8RUo\n\u003e\u003e X2ntOL2pj6qTmW4aYxqqyihiQayLs5ixHPmJxqHv343g5ekqsKmBeDuWR4hXjUyZ\n\u003e\u003e 0Pfcp40Xd3eJ38dSbq98letl5eD+ryBPKYtb91Trumqa9S0WB8kw9IqNaXjlpfG1\n\u003e\u003e lYuaVEllpaLpZW+4cx1mlPneS1GmLvloWhXf4Qh4X39VXECAjOAmNKh1atJCyT7H\n\u003e\u003e ugkOcx1F2Rxo5P3jNzBRJKyAD96sbOhKm4sX7rzSjhT3WJgyHtJm3wkeluDCOVbR\n\u003e\u003e QZqK\n\u003e\u003e =R7Tv\n\u003e\u003e -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e ------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform\n\u003e\u003e Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software\n\u003e\u003e Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready\n\u003e\u003e Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform\n\u003e\u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform\n\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20140420/731cb618/attachment.html\u003e",
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