📅 Original date posted:2020-06-10
📝 Original message:Hello ZmnSCPxj,
On 10/06/2020 11:58, ZmnSCPxj wrote:
> Good morning Chris,
>
>>> Let me propose an alternative: swap-on-receive+swap-on-change.
>>
>> That's an interesting point, thanks for the thought. This scheme might
>> not be appropriate for every threat model and use case.
>> For example, if someone wants to use bitcoin just as a foreign currency
>> for its privacy and censorship-resistant properties. So for example if
>> they want to pay for a VPN anonymously, so they buy bitcoins and
>> immediately send all of them to the VPN merchant. The swap-on-receive
>> wouldn't be appropriate for them because they'll be doing a coinswap
>> straight away to the VPN merchant. So perhaps this plan could be an
>> optional mode of operation (which may or may not be the default). The
>> scheme obviously is useful when bitcoin is being used more as a
>> day-to-day money.
>
>
> No, I think you misunderstand my proposal.
>
> If the user is doing swap-on-receive, the user already has an anonymous UTXO, they can just transfer it directly in full to the VPN without using a CoinSwap.
>
> The number of CoinSwaps involved is the same: one.
>
> So the difference is:
>
> * swap-on-receive:
> * I get some coins from an exchange, giving them my contact information and bank information and all the places I have ever inhabited in my entire existence and an unfertilized egg sample and an archive of my diary and let them invasively scan my cognitive substrate.
> * I send the coins to my CoinSwap wallet.
> * The CoinSwap wallet automaticaly CoinSwaps the coins into a new UTXO.
> * One CoinSwap.
> * I tell the CoinSwap wallet to send it all to the VPN.
> * My CoinSwap wallet knows my coins are already cleaned, so it creates a plain 1-input 1-output transaction directly to the VPN address.
>
> * swap-on-pay:
> * I get some coins from an exchange, giving them my contact information and bank information and all the places I have ever inhabited in my entire existence and an unfertilized egg sample and an archive of my diary and let them invasively scan my cognitive substrate.
> * I send the coins to my CoinSwap wallet.
> * I tell the CoinSwap wallet to send it all to the VPN.
> * My CoinSwap wallet automatically arranges a CoinSwap into the VPN address.
> * One CoinSwap.
>
> So in both cases the same expected number of CoinSwaps is done, i.e. one.
>
> Note that there are still details like how much onchain fees are and how much CoinSwap maker fees are and etc etc but they exist for both flows anyway.
> So I would still be buying slightly more than my target amount, and if there is any change I could just designate it to be added to the mining fees or a donation to ZmnSCPxj, because ZmnSCPxj is so awesome.
>
> What swap-on-receive+swap-on-change instead does is just amortize the timing of the CoinSwaps, so that you CoinSwap as soon as you receive, instead of as soon as you have to pay, so that sending payments is as fast as non-CoinSwap onchain wallets.
>
>
> Regards,
> ZmnSCPxj
>
Right, I get it. Good explanation.
In your swap-on-receive example the exchange also can't tell how long
your coins remain unspent in your wallet, which they could in
swap-on-pay. This is very useful information for an exchange because it
tells them about what hodlers are doing, and they might trade against
them. (e.g. opening big short positions right after they see many long
term hodl'd coins being moved)
Chris Belcher [ARCHIVE] /
npub1ek…lnm2u
2023-06-07 18:25:05
in reply to nevent1q…2wey
Author Public Key
npub1ekvnqhww3aagwuj9t55dgj5y29u8cxdjllfv3vgppt8vc0zljhrs6lnm2uPublished at
2023-06-07 18:25:05Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2020-06-10\n📝 Original message:Hello ZmnSCPxj,\n\nOn 10/06/2020 11:58, ZmnSCPxj wrote:\n\u003e Good morning Chris,\n\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e Let me propose an alternative: swap-on-receive+swap-on-change.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e That's an interesting point, thanks for the thought. This scheme might\n\u003e\u003e not be appropriate for every threat model and use case.\n\u003e\u003e For example, if someone wants to use bitcoin just as a foreign currency\n\u003e\u003e for its privacy and censorship-resistant properties. So for example if\n\u003e\u003e they want to pay for a VPN anonymously, so they buy bitcoins and\n\u003e\u003e immediately send all of them to the VPN merchant. The swap-on-receive\n\u003e\u003e wouldn't be appropriate for them because they'll be doing a coinswap\n\u003e\u003e straight away to the VPN merchant. So perhaps this plan could be an\n\u003e\u003e optional mode of operation (which may or may not be the default). The\n\u003e\u003e scheme obviously is useful when bitcoin is being used more as a\n\u003e\u003e day-to-day money.\n\u003e \n\u003e \n\u003e No, I think you misunderstand my proposal.\n\u003e \n\u003e If the user is doing swap-on-receive, the user already has an anonymous UTXO, they can just transfer it directly in full to the VPN without using a CoinSwap.\n\u003e \n\u003e The number of CoinSwaps involved is the same: one.\n\u003e \n\u003e So the difference is:\n\u003e \n\u003e * swap-on-receive:\n\u003e * I get some coins from an exchange, giving them my contact information and bank information and all the places I have ever inhabited in my entire existence and an unfertilized egg sample and an archive of my diary and let them invasively scan my cognitive substrate.\n\u003e * I send the coins to my CoinSwap wallet.\n\u003e * The CoinSwap wallet automaticaly CoinSwaps the coins into a new UTXO.\n\u003e * One CoinSwap.\n\u003e * I tell the CoinSwap wallet to send it all to the VPN.\n\u003e * My CoinSwap wallet knows my coins are already cleaned, so it creates a plain 1-input 1-output transaction directly to the VPN address.\n\u003e \n\u003e * swap-on-pay:\n\u003e * I get some coins from an exchange, giving them my contact information and bank information and all the places I have ever inhabited in my entire existence and an unfertilized egg sample and an archive of my diary and let them invasively scan my cognitive substrate.\n\u003e * I send the coins to my CoinSwap wallet.\n\u003e * I tell the CoinSwap wallet to send it all to the VPN.\n\u003e * My CoinSwap wallet automatically arranges a CoinSwap into the VPN address.\n\u003e * One CoinSwap.\n\u003e \n\u003e So in both cases the same expected number of CoinSwaps is done, i.e. one.\n\u003e \n\u003e Note that there are still details like how much onchain fees are and how much CoinSwap maker fees are and etc etc but they exist for both flows anyway.\n\u003e So I would still be buying slightly more than my target amount, and if there is any change I could just designate it to be added to the mining fees or a donation to ZmnSCPxj, because ZmnSCPxj is so awesome.\n\u003e \n\u003e What swap-on-receive+swap-on-change instead does is just amortize the timing of the CoinSwaps, so that you CoinSwap as soon as you receive, instead of as soon as you have to pay, so that sending payments is as fast as non-CoinSwap onchain wallets.\n\u003e \n\u003e \n\u003e Regards,\n\u003e ZmnSCPxj\n\u003e \n\nRight, I get it. Good explanation.\n\nIn your swap-on-receive example the exchange also can't tell how long\nyour coins remain unspent in your wallet, which they could in\nswap-on-pay. This is very useful information for an exchange because it\ntells them about what hodlers are doing, and they might trade against\nthem. (e.g. opening big short positions right after they see many long\nterm hodl'd coins being moved)",
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