đź“… Original date posted:2021-01-18
đź“ť Original message:Hi
Before all, thanks for the wiki page tracking the payjoin adoption, it is a
good idea.
-----
Even when there is a reasonable economical incentive to use segwit
transactions to save fees a big percentage of the transactions are not
using segwit yet. In the case of payjoins the economic incentives are not
so big while the privacy benefits are not so clear for the payer as they
are for the global transactions graph as a whole. This means that payjoins
requires some level of altruist attitude from the payers. The payjoins UX
is also not good because I think most users are not familiar with bip21
uris (users still request support because they pay a bech32 address in an
exchange and the exchange tells them that's not a valid bitcoin address).
All this is relative and subjective but in general terms I would say it is
more or less true for many people.
Anyway, imagine wallets' developers agree on making payjoins payment by
default because it is the right thing to do (fight against surveillance to
spy on bitcoin users and improve bitcoin's fungibility). In that case it
should be completely transparent to the users and at not cost, it shouldn't
require the user to do anything different, it shouldn't be noticeable
slower, etc. In fact, users should have to know they are payjoining at all.
The only way I see to achieve something like that is by moving to schemes
where wallets can communicate and interact. I should be able to know
something about you that allows me to select your name from my contact list
and select "Pay to Chris" and if my wallet knows how to find yours then it
can request a new address and pays, or generate a new one for you (probably
using a output descriptor you created to share with me).
Sorry for the long semi-random rant.
El vie, 15 ene 2021 a las 21:07, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev (<
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>) escribiĂł:
> PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the
> potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on
> bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has
> already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as
> BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet.
>
> I've made a wiki page tracking adoption:
> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption
>
> It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page.
>
>
> Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with
> the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll
> quote here:
>
> > you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an
> exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you
> use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and
> adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to
> increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become
> rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your
> account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did
> wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t
> matter.
> >
> > The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this
> trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal
> wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere
> except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a
> regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have
> accounts to websites.
>
> https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye
>
> If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for
> the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase
> adoption of PayJoin?
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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Lucas Ontivero [ARCHIVE] /
npub16q…gqufk
2023-06-07 18:28:16
in reply to nevent1q…ldce
Author Public Key
npub16q9ngejhxtupvrmnmcrhdqag5dcgfyxvc5mhequv4w7637xvp3ss7gqufkPublished at
2023-06-07 18:28:16Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2021-01-18\n📝 Original message:Hi\n\nBefore all, thanks for the wiki page tracking the payjoin adoption, it is a\ngood idea.\n\n-----\n\nEven when there is a reasonable economical incentive to use segwit\ntransactions to save fees a big percentage of the transactions are not\nusing segwit yet. In the case of payjoins the economic incentives are not\nso big while the privacy benefits are not so clear for the payer as they\nare for the global transactions graph as a whole. This means that payjoins\nrequires some level of altruist attitude from the payers. The payjoins UX\nis also not good because I think most users are not familiar with bip21\nuris (users still request support because they pay a bech32 address in an\nexchange and the exchange tells them that's not a valid bitcoin address).\nAll this is relative and subjective but in general terms I would say it is\nmore or less true for many people.\n\nAnyway, imagine wallets' developers agree on making payjoins payment by\ndefault because it is the right thing to do (fight against surveillance to\nspy on bitcoin users and improve bitcoin's fungibility). In that case it\nshould be completely transparent to the users and at not cost, it shouldn't\nrequire the user to do anything different, it shouldn't be noticeable\nslower, etc. In fact, users should have to know they are payjoining at all.\n\nThe only way I see to achieve something like that is by moving to schemes\nwhere wallets can communicate and interact. I should be able to know\nsomething about you that allows me to select your name from my contact list\nand select \"Pay to Chris\" and if my wallet knows how to find yours then it\ncan request a new address and pays, or generate a new one for you (probably\nusing a output descriptor you created to share with me).\n\nSorry for the long semi-random rant.\n\nEl vie, 15 ene 2021 a las 21:07, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev (\u003c\nbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e) escribió:\n\n\u003e PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the\n\u003e potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on\n\u003e bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has\n\u003e already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as\n\u003e BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet.\n\u003e\n\u003e I've made a wiki page tracking adoption:\n\u003e https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption\n\u003e\n\u003e It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page.\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with\n\u003e the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll\n\u003e quote here:\n\u003e\n\u003e \u003e you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an\n\u003e exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you\n\u003e use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and\n\u003e adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to\n\u003e increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become\n\u003e rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your\n\u003e account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did\n\u003e wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t\n\u003e matter.\n\u003e \u003e\n\u003e \u003e The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this\n\u003e trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal\n\u003e wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere\n\u003e except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a\n\u003e regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have\n\u003e accounts to websites.\n\u003e\n\u003e https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye\n\u003e\n\u003e If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for\n\u003e the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase\n\u003e adoption of PayJoin?\n\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20210118/d900c8f8/attachment.html\u003e",
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