đź“… Original date posted:2021-03-02
đź“ť Original message:The idea of a fully-transparent bitcoin is dead and has been for many
years. This is because of various privacy tech such as CoinJoin,
Lightning Network, PayJoin, change avoidance, avoiding address reuse,
etc, along with a few new ones like CoinSwap and WabiSabi hopefully
coming soon.
On 01/03/2021 22:37, Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> To be clear, is this a NACK because Taproot reduces “transparency” (increases privacy) on the chain (“maintaining consensus” is obviously an argument against any protocol change, so that’s a red herring)?
>
> And is it your theory that only an “honest” (statute abiding) person should have privacy, and not against the state, and/or that mixers are sufficient privacy?
>
> Personally, I’m not moved by such an argument. What do you think is the value proposition of Bitcoin?
>
> e
>
>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 14:21, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Good Afternoon,
>>
>> I am going to take tough terms with much of your reply and do appreciate a courteous practice. Having previously made public disclosure of my affiliation with Jambler.io it seems sufficient to disclose my affiliation through the link in my email signature block.
>>
>> My concern is not increased privacy it is maintaining consensus values and the transparency of the blockchain wherein all transactions are published in an immutable record and that forbids the redaction of information by any obfuscation. A separate concern is the availability of a privacy suitable for cash should a Bitcoin user desire and especially without disturbing the existing consensus.
>>
>> The use of a Bitcoin Mixer is to enable standard equivalent privacy. As you may experience yourself, you do not allow people to follow you around looking in your purse, suppose you are dealing entirely with cash, and to see where and how much you fill it up, and where you spend. Nonetheless, for an honest person, their wallet is available for government audit as are their financial affairs. This is consistent with the existing operation of consensus.
>>
>> My full email signature block is a disclosure where I have some affiliation with the referenced website being that it carries at least some information that I have provided or that in some way I am associated perhaps only making use of their services. For example, I hardly make a profit from LinkedIn just my information is there. Also, I have made previous public disclosure of the affiliation. Bitcoin Mixer 2.0 is a partner mixer run by Jambler.io wherein I receive a service referral fee and am not in receipt of any part of the process transaction. The operation block diagram provided by Jambler.io is provided here and attached.
>> <ip.bitcointalk.org.png>
>>
>> [ip.bitcointalk.org.png]-Operation of Jambler.io partner mixer
>> https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fjambler.io%2Fimages%2Fscheme-1.png&t=622&c=gTi7r1cfh-yynw
>> from this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5267588
>>
>>
>> The installation script provided by Jambler.io that is the basis of my referral website is also publicly published,
>> https://github.com/jambler-io/bitcoin-mixer
>>
>> The disclosure for the partner program is available from Jambler.io however and is made prominently on my referral website. While it may seem lucrative at first I insist all partner profits are reportable on your personal income.
>> https://jambler.io/become-partner.php
>>
>> I am certainly better than confident that you appreciate the difference between an open and transparent blockchain and the ability of the user to not reveal details of the content of their wallet publicly.
>>
>> If further clarification is required may I suggest you pay a token and mix some Bitcoin wherein our discussion may then have some point of reference.
>>
>> KING JAMES HRMH
>> Great British Empire
>>
>> Regards,
>> The Australian
>> LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
>> of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
>> MR. Damian A. James Williamson
>> Wills
>>
>> et al.
>>
>>
>> Willtech
>> www.willtech.com.au
>> www.go-overt.com
>> and other projects
>>
>> earn.com/willtech
>> linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson
>>
>>
>> m. 0487135719
>> f. +61261470192
>>
>>
>> This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered.
>> From: Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces <arielluaces at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, 1 March 2021 12:07 AM
>> To: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech at live.com.au>; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
>>
>> Hello LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
>>
>> I find a striking dichotomy between your concern of increased privacy in bitcoin and your link to a bitcoin mixer in your signature www.go-overt.com
>>
>> At first your concerns seemed genuine but after seeing your promotion of a bitcoin mixer I'm thinking your concerns may be more profit motivated? I can't tell since you failed to disclose your relationship with the mixer.
>>
>> Could you please clarify your association with the bitcoin mixer and moving forward could you please always do proper disclosure any time you're publically talking about bitcoin transaction privacy. It's only fair to do so as to not mislead people in an attempt to manipulate at worst and just a courteous practice at best.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces
>> On Feb 28, 2021, at 4:36 AM, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>> Good Evening,
>>
>> Thank-you for your advice @JeremyRubin on the basis you advise, "Taproot does not enable monero-like privacy features", I am prepred to withdraw my NACK notably that the existing feeatures of Bitcoin MUST be maintained, and whereby the UTXO of a transaction is identifiable, the PayTo Address, and the amount all without any obfuscation.
>>
>> Lightning does not really provide obfuscation, it provides a result of a subset of transactions although the operation of the channel is observable to the parties.
>>
>> The reports I were reading concerning the supposed operation of Taproot published in a public media channel may have been speculation or misinformation nonetheless it is prudent to conditionally reply as you see that I have. It is important not to allow things to slip through the cracks. As you may believe may astute reviewers could make a full disclosure to this list it is not to be expected.
>>
>> KING JAMES HRMH
>> Great British Empire
>>
>> Regards,
>> The Australian
>> LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
>> of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
>> MR. Damian A. James Williamson
>> Wills
>>
>> et al.
>>
>>
>> Willtech
>> www.willtech.com.au
>> www.go-overt.com
>> and other projects
>>
>> earn.com/willtech
>> linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson
>>
>>
>> m. 0487135719
>> f. +61261470192
>>
>>
>> This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered.
>> From: Jeremy <jlrubin at mit.edu>
>> Sent: Sunday, 28 February 2021 3:14 AM
>> To: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech at live.com.au>; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
>>
>> I have good news for you: Taproot does not enable monero-like privacy features any moreso than already exist in Bitcoin today. At its core, taproot is a way to make transactions with embedded smart contracts less expensive, done so in a manner that may marginally improve privacy dependent on user behavior (but not in the monero-like way you mention). For example, it makes it possible for lightning channels to look structurally similar to single key wallets, but it does nothing inherently to obfuscate the transaction graph as in monero.
>>
>> Such "monero-like" transaction graph obfuscation may already exist in Bitcoin via other techniques (coinjoin, payjoin, coinswap, lightning, etc) with or without Taproot, so the point is further moot.
>>
>> Do you have a source on your reporting?
>>
>> You may wish to rescind your nack.
>>
>>
>> --
>> @JeremyRubin
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 5:46 AM LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>> Good Afternoon,
>>
>> It has been reported that Taproot will enable some Monero like features including the ability to hide transactions.
>>
>> If that is the case I offer a full NACK and let me explain.
>>
>> A part of the benefit of using Bitcoin is its honesty. The full transaction is published on the blockchain. If that were to change so that transactions may be obfuscated from scrutiny then any government would have unlimited impetus to ban Bitcoin, and speculation has that is the reason India has been reported to have banned cryptocurrencies already.
>>
>> I am in support of the expanded use case of Bitcoin without harming the established robust fairness and equal equity offered. The core functionality of Bitcoin, its values, must remain unaltered.
>>
>> KING JAMES HRMH
>> Great British Empire
>>
>> Regards,
>> The Australian
>> LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
>> of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
>> MR. Damian A. James Williamson
>> Wills
>>
>> et al.
>>
>>
>> Willtech
>> www.willtech.com.au
>> www.go-overt.com
>> and other projects
>>
>> earn.com/willtech
>> linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson
>>
>>
>> m. 0487135719
>> f. +61261470192
>>
>>
>> This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered.
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>> <ip.bitcointalk.org.png>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
Chris Belcher [ARCHIVE] /
npub1ek…lnm2u
2023-06-07 18:29:31
in reply to nevent1q…x5t4
Author Public Key
npub1ekvnqhww3aagwuj9t55dgj5y29u8cxdjllfv3vgppt8vc0zljhrs6lnm2uPublished at
2023-06-07 18:29:31Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2021-03-02\n📝 Original message:The idea of a fully-transparent bitcoin is dead and has been for many\nyears. This is because of various privacy tech such as CoinJoin,\nLightning Network, PayJoin, change avoidance, avoiding address reuse,\netc, along with a few new ones like CoinSwap and WabiSabi hopefully\ncoming soon.\n\nOn 01/03/2021 22:37, Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev wrote:\n\u003e To be clear, is this a NACK because Taproot reduces “transparency” (increases privacy) on the chain (“maintaining consensus” is obviously an argument against any protocol change, so that’s a red herring)? \n\u003e \n\u003e And is it your theory that only an “honest” (statute abiding) person should have privacy, and not against the state, and/or that mixers are sufficient privacy?\n\u003e \n\u003e Personally, I’m not moved by such an argument. What do you think is the value proposition of Bitcoin?\n\u003e \n\u003e e\n\u003e \n\u003e\u003e On Mar 1, 2021, at 14:21, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-dev \u003cbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e Good Afternoon,\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e I am going to take tough terms with much of your reply and do appreciate a courteous practice. Having previously made public disclosure of my affiliation with Jambler.io it seems sufficient to disclose my affiliation through the link in my email signature block.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e My concern is not increased privacy it is maintaining consensus values and the transparency of the blockchain wherein all transactions are published in an immutable record and that forbids the redaction of information by any obfuscation. A separate concern is the availability of a privacy suitable for cash should a Bitcoin user desire and especially without disturbing the existing consensus.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e The use of a Bitcoin Mixer is to enable standard equivalent privacy. As you may experience yourself, you do not allow people to follow you around looking in your purse, suppose you are dealing entirely with cash, and to see where and how much you fill it up, and where you spend. Nonetheless, for an honest person, their wallet is available for government audit as are their financial affairs. This is consistent with the existing operation of consensus.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e My full email signature block is a disclosure where I have some affiliation with the referenced website being that it carries at least some information that I have provided or that in some way I am associated perhaps only making use of their services. For example, I hardly make a profit from LinkedIn just my information is there. Also, I have made previous public disclosure of the affiliation. Bitcoin Mixer 2.0 is a partner mixer run by Jambler.io wherein I receive a service referral fee and am not in receipt of any part of the process transaction. The operation block diagram provided by Jambler.io is provided here and attached.\n\u003e\u003e \u003cip.bitcointalk.org.png\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e [ip.bitcointalk.org.png]-Operation of Jambler.io partner mixer\n\u003e\u003e https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fjambler.io%2Fimages%2Fscheme-1.png\u0026t=622\u0026c=gTi7r1cfh-yynw\n\u003e\u003e from this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5267588\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e The installation script provided by Jambler.io that is the basis of my referral website is also publicly published,\n\u003e\u003e https://github.com/jambler-io/bitcoin-mixer\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e The disclosure for the partner program is available from Jambler.io however and is made prominently on my referral website. While it may seem lucrative at first I insist all partner profits are reportable on your personal income.\n\u003e\u003e https://jambler.io/become-partner.php\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e I am certainly better than confident that you appreciate the difference between an open and transparent blockchain and the ability of the user to not reveal details of the content of their wallet publicly.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e If further clarification is required may I suggest you pay a token and mix some Bitcoin wherein our discussion may then have some point of reference.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e KING JAMES HRMH\n\u003e\u003e Great British Empire\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Regards,\n\u003e\u003e The Australian\n\u003e\u003e LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (\u0026 HMRH)\n\u003e\u003e of Hougun Manor \u0026 Glencoe \u0026 British Empire\n\u003e\u003e MR. Damian A. James Williamson\n\u003e\u003e Wills\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e et al.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e Willtech\n\u003e\u003e www.willtech.com.au\n\u003e\u003e www.go-overt.com\n\u003e\u003e and other projects\n\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e earn.com/willtech\n\u003e\u003e linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e m. 0487135719\n\u003e\u003e f. +61261470192\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered.\n\u003e\u003e From: Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces \u003carielluaces at gmail.com\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Sent: Monday, 1 March 2021 12:07 AM\n\u003e\u003e To: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH \u003cwilltech at live.com.au\u003e; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion \u003cbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK\n\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e Hello LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e I find a striking dichotomy between your concern of increased privacy in bitcoin and your link to a bitcoin mixer in your signature www.go-overt.com\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e At first your concerns seemed genuine but after seeing your promotion of a bitcoin mixer I'm thinking your concerns may be more profit motivated? I can't tell since you failed to disclose your relationship with the mixer.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Could you please clarify your association with the bitcoin mixer and moving forward could you please always do proper disclosure any time you're publically talking about bitcoin transaction privacy. It's only fair to do so as to not mislead people in an attempt to manipulate at worst and just a courteous practice at best.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Cheers\n\u003e\u003e Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces\n\u003e\u003e On Feb 28, 2021, at 4:36 AM, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-dev \u003cbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e Good Evening,\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Thank-you for your advice @JeremyRubin on the basis you advise, \"Taproot does not enable monero-like privacy features\", I am prepred to withdraw my NACK notably that the existing feeatures of Bitcoin MUST be maintained, and whereby the UTXO of a transaction is identifiable, the PayTo Address, and the amount all without any obfuscation.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Lightning does not really provide obfuscation, it provides a result of a subset of transactions although the operation of the channel is observable to the parties.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e The reports I were reading concerning the supposed operation of Taproot published in a public media channel may have been speculation or misinformation nonetheless it is prudent to conditionally reply as you see that I have. It is important not to allow things to slip through the cracks. As you may believe may astute reviewers could make a full disclosure to this list it is not to be expected.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e KING JAMES HRMH\n\u003e\u003e Great British Empire\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Regards,\n\u003e\u003e The Australian\n\u003e\u003e LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (\u0026 HMRH)\n\u003e\u003e of Hougun Manor \u0026 Glencoe \u0026 British Empire\n\u003e\u003e MR. Damian A. James Williamson\n\u003e\u003e Wills\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e et al.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e Willtech\n\u003e\u003e www.willtech.com.au\n\u003e\u003e www.go-overt.com\n\u003e\u003e and other projects\n\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e earn.com/willtech\n\u003e\u003e linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e m. 0487135719\n\u003e\u003e f. +61261470192\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered.\n\u003e\u003e From: Jeremy \u003cjlrubin at mit.edu\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Sent: Sunday, 28 February 2021 3:14 AM\n\u003e\u003e To: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH \u003cwilltech at live.com.au\u003e; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion \u003cbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK\n\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e I have good news for you: Taproot does not enable monero-like privacy features any moreso than already exist in Bitcoin today. At its core, taproot is a way to make transactions with embedded smart contracts less expensive, done so in a manner that may marginally improve privacy dependent on user behavior (but not in the monero-like way you mention). For example, it makes it possible for lightning channels to look structurally similar to single key wallets, but it does nothing inherently to obfuscate the transaction graph as in monero. \n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Such \"monero-like\" transaction graph obfuscation may already exist in Bitcoin via other techniques (coinjoin, payjoin, coinswap, lightning, etc) with or without Taproot, so the point is further moot. \n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Do you have a source on your reporting?\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e You may wish to rescind your nack. \n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e -- \n\u003e\u003e @JeremyRubin\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 5:46 AM LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-dev \u003c bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote: \n\u003e\u003e Good Afternoon,\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e It has been reported that Taproot will enable some Monero like features including the ability to hide transactions.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e If that is the case I offer a full NACK and let me explain.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e A part of the benefit of using Bitcoin is its honesty. The full transaction is published on the blockchain. If that were to change so that transactions may be obfuscated from scrutiny then any government would have unlimited impetus to ban Bitcoin, and speculation has that is the reason India has been reported to have banned cryptocurrencies already.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e I am in support of the expanded use case of Bitcoin without harming the established robust fairness and equal equity offered. The core functionality of Bitcoin, its values, must remain unaltered. \n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e KING JAMES HRMH\n\u003e\u003e Great British Empire \n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Regards,\n\u003e\u003e The Australian\n\u003e\u003e LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (\u0026 HMRH)\n\u003e\u003e of Hougun Manor \u0026 Glencoe \u0026 British Empire\n\u003e\u003e MR. Damian A. James Williamson\n\u003e\u003e Wills\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e et al.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e Willtech\n\u003e\u003e www.willtech.com.au\n\u003e\u003e www.go-overt.com\n\u003e\u003e and other projects\n\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e earn.com/willtech\n\u003e\u003e linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e m. 0487135719\n\u003e\u003e f. +61261470192\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered.\n\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________ \n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list \n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org \n\u003e\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev \n\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e\u003e \u003cip.bitcointalk.org.png\u003e\n\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e \n\u003e \n\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e",
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