Kortik 🇦🇲 on Nostr: Stop your bull shit word playing once again let me explain it to you. Pool fee is for ...
Stop your bull shit word playing once again let me explain it to you.
Pool fee is for paying Samourai. Dual purpose of paying them for the software development, liquidity management as well as making it expensive to Sybil attack mixes. The miner fees pay for your txs yes as there'll be a few when you whirlpool.
Coinjoin wouldn't work without pool fees. It is primarily a sybil attack prevention.
Whirlpool is different than other CoinJoin services, in that you do not pay a volume based fee per anonymity set, but instead you pay a one time flat fee for an unlimited anonymity set.
To put it simply, it costs the same in Pool Fees to cycle 1 BTC or 1000 BTC. Once the pool fee is paid, it costs nothing to continue cycling. With each cycle you gain a greater privacy advantage with a deeper anonymity set. A Tx0 is the transaction your Samourai Wallet will create that splits your selected UTXO’s into the right size chunks for the pool you have specified.
The Tx0 makes all your UTXO's share a tx hash, which prevents them from mixing with each other, preventing an "accidental" Sybil attack from entering a large amount of BTC, Samourai separates the coordinator fee in the Tx0 no fee flagging in the fee addresses.
There are mitigations in place within the Whirlpool protocol. Most importantly is the fact that remixers for each round are chosen randomly. So even with an adversary running a large number of clients, they wouldn't be able to guarantee on a per round basis that they could be the majority of inputs.
A sybil attack is something very specific, IE a single entity running multiple mixing clients which would manifest itself as multiple UXTOs from the same mix.
The remixing incentive is an important aspect of sybil resistance. By incentivizing users (remixing for free) you give them the opportunity to mitigate against the outcome of a sybil'ed mixing round.
Wasabi and Samourai have completely different fee models. Samourai is once only whereas Wasabi gets commission per mix.
Therefore, Wasabi is incentivized to Sybil their mixes.
Samourai Whirlpool provides free remixing (no transaction fees) so you can leave your coins as long as you want in the pool to mitigate concerns
There is structurally enforced liquidity going into a mix. A single Tx0 fee on Whirlpool means you still only get one coin in per mix and don't mix with yourself which makes it very Sybil resistant
Also you are gaining verifiable on chain privacy with a centralized conjoin from external observers - conjoins will always have a Sybil attack as a weakness so you should pick the scheme that gives you the best chance of gaining privacy.
Something like JoinMarket isn't immune to this either as the maker is the coordinator for every mix. "Decentralized" means just the guy offering the lowest fees observes the mix as they contribute to it.
You remix to avoid the risk of getting sybilled but on chain there is literally zero link.
Ultimately though, the Tx0 is a good mechanism against Sybil attacks as it ensures there's an up front cost and for users that are concerned about this threat, they can stay remixing at no extra cost.
what is here hard to understand?
Published at
2023-03-03 07:09:44Event JSON
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"content": "Stop your bull shit word playing once again let me explain it to you.\n\nPool fee is for paying Samourai. Dual purpose of paying them for the software development, liquidity management as well as making it expensive to Sybil attack mixes. The miner fees pay for your txs yes as there'll be a few when you whirlpool.\n\nCoinjoin wouldn't work without pool fees. It is primarily a sybil attack prevention.\nWhirlpool is different than other CoinJoin services, in that you do not pay a volume based fee per anonymity set, but instead you pay a one time flat fee for an unlimited anonymity set.\nTo put it simply, it costs the same in Pool Fees to cycle 1 BTC or 1000 BTC. Once the pool fee is paid, it costs nothing to continue cycling. With each cycle you gain a greater privacy advantage with a deeper anonymity set. A Tx0 is the transaction your Samourai Wallet will create that splits your selected UTXO’s into the right size chunks for the pool you have specified. \nThe Tx0 makes all your UTXO's share a tx hash, which prevents them from mixing with each other, preventing an \"accidental\" Sybil attack from entering a large amount of BTC, Samourai separates the coordinator fee in the Tx0 no fee flagging in the fee addresses.\nThere are mitigations in place within the Whirlpool protocol. Most importantly is the fact that remixers for each round are chosen randomly. So even with an adversary running a large number of clients, they wouldn't be able to guarantee on a per round basis that they could be the majority of inputs.\nA sybil attack is something very specific, IE a single entity running multiple mixing clients which would manifest itself as multiple UXTOs from the same mix. \n\nThe remixing incentive is an important aspect of sybil resistance. By incentivizing users (remixing for free) you give them the opportunity to mitigate against the outcome of a sybil'ed mixing round.\nWasabi and Samourai have completely different fee models. Samourai is once only whereas Wasabi gets commission per mix. \nTherefore, Wasabi is incentivized to Sybil their mixes.\nSamourai Whirlpool provides free remixing (no transaction fees) so you can leave your coins as long as you want in the pool to mitigate concerns\nThere is structurally enforced liquidity going into a mix. A single Tx0 fee on Whirlpool means you still only get one coin in per mix and don't mix with yourself which makes it very Sybil resistant\n\nAlso you are gaining verifiable on chain privacy with a centralized conjoin from external observers - conjoins will always have a Sybil attack as a weakness so you should pick the scheme that gives you the best chance of gaining privacy.\nSomething like JoinMarket isn't immune to this either as the maker is the coordinator for every mix. \"Decentralized\" means just the guy offering the lowest fees observes the mix as they contribute to it.\nYou remix to avoid the risk of getting sybilled but on chain there is literally zero link.\nUltimately though, the Tx0 is a good mechanism against Sybil attacks as it ensures there's an up front cost and for users that are concerned about this threat, they can stay remixing at no extra cost.\n\nwhat is here hard to understand?\n\n\n\n",
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