📅 Original date posted:2015-06-27
📝 Original message:On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Peter Todd <pete at petertodd.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 01:25:14PM -0400, Michael Naber wrote:
> > Global network consensus means that there is global network recognition
> > that a particular transaction has occurred and is irreversible. The
> > off-chain solutions you describe, while probably useful for other
> purposes,
> > do not exhibit this characteristic and so they are not global network
> > consensus networks.
>
> Hub-and-spoke payment channels and the Lightning network are not
> off-chain solutions, they are ways to more efficiently use on-chain
> transactions to achive the goal of moving assets from point a to point
> b, resulting in more economic transactions being done with fewer - but
> not zero! - blockchain transactions.
>
> Off-chain transaction systems such as Changetip allow economic
> transactions to happen with no blockchain transactions at all.
>
> > Bitcoin Core scales as O(N), where N is the number of transactions. Can
> we
> > do better than this while still achieving global consensus?
>
> No, Bitcoin the network scales with O(n^2) with your above criteria, as
> each node creates k transactions, thus each node has to verify k*n
> transactions, resulting in O(n^2) total work.
>
> For Bitcoin to have O(n) scaling you have to assume that the number of
> validation nodes doesn't scale with the number of users, thus resulting
> in a system where users trust others to do validation for them. That is
> not a global consensus system; that's a trust-based system.
>
>
Why does it matter what the "total work" of the network is? Anyone who is
participating as a node on the network only cares about the resources
required to run their own node, not the resources everyone else needs to
run their nodes.
Also, no assumption needed, it is quite clear that the number of nodes is
not scaling along with the number of users. If anything it appears to be
inversely proportional.
> There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but why change Bitcoin
> itself into a trust-based system, when you can preserve the global
> consensus functionality, and built a trust-based system on top of it?
>
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 0000000000000000007fc13ce02072d9cb2a6d51fae41fefcde7b3b283803d24
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
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Jameson Lopp [ARCHIVE] /
npub1gh…akqmn
2023-06-07 15:40:53
in reply to nevent1q…642c
Author Public Key
npub1ghgfr3aumwuxwnwghywxpaejxpf6k9pjcnyg9lfdnztlu5pwa0ksyakqmnPublished at
2023-06-07 15:40:53Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2015-06-27\n📝 Original message:On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Peter Todd \u003cpete at petertodd.org\u003e wrote:\n\n\u003e On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 01:25:14PM -0400, Michael Naber wrote:\n\u003e \u003e Global network consensus means that there is global network recognition\n\u003e \u003e that a particular transaction has occurred and is irreversible. The\n\u003e \u003e off-chain solutions you describe, while probably useful for other\n\u003e purposes,\n\u003e \u003e do not exhibit this characteristic and so they are not global network\n\u003e \u003e consensus networks.\n\u003e\n\u003e Hub-and-spoke payment channels and the Lightning network are not\n\u003e off-chain solutions, they are ways to more efficiently use on-chain\n\u003e transactions to achive the goal of moving assets from point a to point\n\u003e b, resulting in more economic transactions being done with fewer - but\n\u003e not zero! - blockchain transactions.\n\u003e\n\u003e Off-chain transaction systems such as Changetip allow economic\n\u003e transactions to happen with no blockchain transactions at all.\n\u003e\n\u003e \u003e Bitcoin Core scales as O(N), where N is the number of transactions. Can\n\u003e we\n\u003e \u003e do better than this while still achieving global consensus?\n\u003e\n\u003e No, Bitcoin the network scales with O(n^2) with your above criteria, as\n\u003e each node creates k transactions, thus each node has to verify k*n\n\u003e transactions, resulting in O(n^2) total work.\n\u003e\n\u003e For Bitcoin to have O(n) scaling you have to assume that the number of\n\u003e validation nodes doesn't scale with the number of users, thus resulting\n\u003e in a system where users trust others to do validation for them. That is\n\u003e not a global consensus system; that's a trust-based system.\n\u003e\n\u003e\nWhy does it matter what the \"total work\" of the network is? Anyone who is\nparticipating as a node on the network only cares about the resources\nrequired to run their own node, not the resources everyone else needs to\nrun their nodes.\n\nAlso, no assumption needed, it is quite clear that the number of nodes is\nnot scaling along with the number of users. If anything it appears to be\ninversely proportional.\n\n\n\u003e There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but why change Bitcoin\n\u003e itself into a trust-based system, when you can preserve the global\n\u003e consensus functionality, and built a trust-based system on top of it?\n\u003e\n\u003e --\n\u003e 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org\n\u003e 0000000000000000007fc13ce02072d9cb2a6d51fae41fefcde7b3b283803d24\n\u003e\n\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e\n\u003e\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20150627/62915947/attachment.html\u003e",
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