📅 Original date posted:2023-05-10
🗒️ Summary of this message: The proposal to change the transaction "max fee" to output amounts may not be effective in preventing spam attacks and could lead to more transactions and higher fees.
📝 Original message:> possible to change tx "max fee" to output amounts?
Is it possible? Yes. Should we do that? My first thought was "maybe", but after thinking more about it, I would say "no", here is why:
Starting point: 1 BTC on some output.
Current situation: A single transaction moving 0.99999000 BTC as fees, and creating 1000 satoshis as some output (I know, allowed dust values are lower and depend on address type, but let's say it is 1k sats to make things simpler).
And then, there is a room for other solutions, for example your rule, mentioned in other posts, like this one: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2023-May/021626.html
> probably easier just to reject any transaction where the fee is higher than the sum of the outputs
Possible situation after introducing your proposal, step-by-step:
1) Someone wants to move 1 BTC, and someone wants to pay 0.99999000 BTC as fees. Assuming your rules are on consensus level, the first transaction creates 0.5 BTC output and 0.5 BTC fee.
2) That person still wants to move 0.5 remaining BTC, and still is willing to pay 0.49999000 BTC as fees. Guess what will happen: you will see another transaction, creating 0.25 BTC output, and paying 0.25 BTC fee.
...
N) Your proposal replaced one transaction, consuming maybe one kilobyte, with a lot of transactions, doing exactly the same, but where fees are distributed between many transactions.
Before thinking about improving that system, consider one simple thing: is it possible to avoid "max fee rule", no matter in what way it will be defined? Because as shown above, the answer seems to be "yes", because you can always replace a single transaction moving 1 BTC as fees with multiple transactions, each paying one satoshi per virtual byte, and then instead of consuming around one kilobyte, it would consume around 1 MvB per 0.01 BTC, so 100 MvB per 1 BTC mentioned in the example above.
On 2023-05-08 13:55:18 user Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
possible to change tx "max fee" to output amounts?
seems like the only use case that would support such a tx is spam/dos type stuff that satoshi warned about
its not a fix for everything, but it seems could help a bit with certain attacks
vjudeu at gazeta.pl [ARCHIVE] /
npub135…nssga
2023-06-07 23:21:38
in reply to nevent1q…dpsn
Author Public Key
npub1357006afyypkgz03lmq8fnuvlkyjt0rukx8rt56ck8xv396jaceqmnssgaPublished at
2023-06-07 23:21:38Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2023-05-10\n🗒️ Summary of this message: The proposal to change the transaction \"max fee\" to output amounts may not be effective in preventing spam attacks and could lead to more transactions and higher fees.\n📝 Original message:\u003e possible to change tx \"max fee\" to output amounts?\n\nIs it possible? Yes. Should we do that? My first thought was \"maybe\", but after thinking more about it, I would say \"no\", here is why:\n\nStarting point: 1 BTC on some output.\nCurrent situation: A single transaction moving 0.99999000 BTC as fees, and creating 1000 satoshis as some output (I know, allowed dust values are lower and depend on address type, but let's say it is 1k sats to make things simpler).\n\nAnd then, there is a room for other solutions, for example your rule, mentioned in other posts, like this one: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2023-May/021626.html\n\n\u003e probably easier just to reject any transaction where the fee is higher than the sum of the outputs\n\nPossible situation after introducing your proposal, step-by-step:\n\n1) Someone wants to move 1 BTC, and someone wants to pay 0.99999000 BTC as fees. Assuming your rules are on consensus level, the first transaction creates 0.5 BTC output and 0.5 BTC fee.\n2) That person still wants to move 0.5 remaining BTC, and still is willing to pay 0.49999000 BTC as fees. Guess what will happen: you will see another transaction, creating 0.25 BTC output, and paying 0.25 BTC fee.\n...\nN) Your proposal replaced one transaction, consuming maybe one kilobyte, with a lot of transactions, doing exactly the same, but where fees are distributed between many transactions.\n\nBefore thinking about improving that system, consider one simple thing: is it possible to avoid \"max fee rule\", no matter in what way it will be defined? Because as shown above, the answer seems to be \"yes\", because you can always replace a single transaction moving 1 BTC as fees with multiple transactions, each paying one satoshi per virtual byte, and then instead of consuming around one kilobyte, it would consume around 1 MvB per 0.01 BTC, so 100 MvB per 1 BTC mentioned in the example above.\n\n\n\nOn 2023-05-08 13:55:18 user Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev \u003cbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\npossible to change tx \"max fee\" to output amounts?\n\n\nseems like the only use case that would support such a tx is spam/dos type stuff that satoshi warned about\n\n\nits not a fix for everything, but it seems could help a bit with certain attacks",
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