đ
Original date posted:2017-03-25
đ Original message:Potentially miners could create their own private communication channel/listening port for submitting transactions that they would not relay to other miners/the public node relay network. Users could then chose who they want to relay to. Miners would be incentivized to not relay higher fee transactions, because they would want to keep them to themselves for higher profits.
Cheers,
Praxeology Guy
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Inquiry: Transaction Tiering
Local Time: March 22, 2017 12:48 PM
UTC Time: March 22, 2017 5:48 PM
From: bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
To: bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
Hi Tim,
After writing this I figured that it was probably not evident at first
sight as the concept may be quite novel. The physical location of the
"miner" is indeed irrelevant, I am referring to the digital location.
Bitcoins blockchain is a digital location or better digital "space".
As far as I am concerned the authority lies with whoever governs this
particular block space. A "miner" can, or can not, include my
transaction.
To make this more understandable:
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi can extend his caliphate into Bitcoins block
space and rule sovereign(!) over a given block. If he processes my
transaction my fee goes directly into the coffers of his organization.
The same goes for the Queen of England or the Emperor of China. My
interest is not necessarily aligned with each specific authority, yet
as you point out, I can only not use Bitcoin.
Alternatively, however, I can very well sign my transaction and send
it to an authority of my choosing to be included into the ledger, say
BitFurry. - This is what I describe in option 1.
In order to protect my interest I do need to choose, maybe not today,
but eventually.
I also think that people do care who processes transactions and a lot
of bickering could be spared if we could choose.
If we assume a perfectly competitive market with 3 authorities that
govern the block space equally, the marginal cost of 1/3 of the block
space is the same for each, however, the marginal revenue absent of
block rewards is dependent on fees.
If people are willing to pay only a zero fee to a specific authority
while a fee greater than zero to the others it's clear that one would
be less competitive.
Let us assume the fees are 10% of the revenue and the cost is 95 we
have currently the following situation:
A: Cost=95; Revenue=100; Profit=5
B: Cost=95; Revenue=100; Profit=5
C: Cost=95; Revenue=100; Profit=5
With transaction tiering, the outcome could be different!
A: Cost=95; Revenue=90; Loss=5 // BSA that does not respect user interest.
B: Cost=95; Revenue=105; Profit=10
C: Cost=95; Revenue=105; Profit=10
This could motivate transaction processors to behave in accordance
with user interest, or am I missing something?
Best Regards,
Martin
> From: Tim Ruffing <tim.ruffing at mmci.uni-saarland.de>
> To: bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:18:26 +0100
> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Inquiry: Transaction Tiering
> (I'm not a lawyer...)
>
> I'm not sure if I can make sense of your email.
>
> On Mon, 2017-03-20 at 20:12 +0000, Martin Stolze via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>> As a participant in the economy in general and of Bitcoin in
>> particular, I desire an ability to decide where I transact. The
>> current state of Bitcoin does not allow me to choose my place of
>> business. As a consequence, I try to learn what would be the best way
>> to conduct my business in good faith. [2]
>
> Ignoring the rest, I don't think that the physical location /
> jurisdiction of the miner has any legal implications for law applicable
> to the relationship between sender and receiver of a payment.
>
> This is not particular to Bitcoin. We're both in Germany (I guess).
> Assume we have a contract without specific agreements and I pay you in
> Icelandic kronur via PayPal (in Luxembourg) and my HTTPS requests to
> PayPal went via Australia and the US. Then German law applies to our
> contract, nothing in the middle can change that.
>
> Also ignoring possible security implications, there is just no need for
> a mechanism that enables users to select miners. I claim that almost
> nobody cares who will mine a transaction, because it makes no technical
> difference. If you don't want a specific miner to mine your
> transaction, then don't use Bitcoin.
>
> Tim
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20170325/bfa2755f/attachment.html>;
praxeology_guy [ARCHIVE] /
npub1hzâŚ7nzv7
2023-06-07 17:57:29
in reply to nevent1qâŚhgvh
Author Public Key
npub1hzkv59ax7ax80nv2fzvcgmveqyk3k5sg9gq695n48l9scenf5c9sa7nzv7Published at
2023-06-07 17:57:29Event JSON
{
"id": "08ab98bbc193e10a47b6e01bb09b1425d5ff07bbddf074313e8f9e4ffbe03280",
"pubkey": "b8acca17a6f74c77cd8a4899846d99012d1b52082a01a2d2753fcb0c6669a60b",
"created_at": 1686160649,
"kind": 1,
"tags": [
[
"e",
"ad7e90d867377a53e2165bf8105a6bd781b67b75209ba255f9a84dd9956506ed",
"",
"root"
],
[
"e",
"c18d0f3ea5549cac8c613ef7d1b97b145d8644a048599b901ea23c82bf6c6029",
"",
"reply"
],
[
"p",
"cd34e0cac78e6e702b189a3c2be01bc11e340bb4f7901e3f0918271a9acec2ce"
]
],
"content": "đ
Original date posted:2017-03-25\nđ Original message:Potentially miners could create their own private communication channel/listening port for submitting transactions that they would not relay to other miners/the public node relay network. Users could then chose who they want to relay to. Miners would be incentivized to not relay higher fee transactions, because they would want to keep them to themselves for higher profits.\n\nCheers,\nPraxeology Guy\n\n-------- Original Message --------\nSubject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Inquiry: Transaction Tiering\nLocal Time: March 22, 2017 12:48 PM\nUTC Time: March 22, 2017 5:48 PM\nFrom: bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\nTo: bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\nHi Tim,\nAfter writing this I figured that it was probably not evident at first\nsight as the concept may be quite novel. The physical location of the\n\"miner\" is indeed irrelevant, I am referring to the digital location.\nBitcoins blockchain is a digital location or better digital \"space\".\nAs far as I am concerned the authority lies with whoever governs this\nparticular block space. A \"miner\" can, or can not, include my\ntransaction.\n\nTo make this more understandable:\n\nAbu Bakr al-Baghdadi can extend his caliphate into Bitcoins block\nspace and rule sovereign(!) over a given block. If he processes my\ntransaction my fee goes directly into the coffers of his organization.\nThe same goes for the Queen of England or the Emperor of China. My\ninterest is not necessarily aligned with each specific authority, yet\nas you point out, I can only not use Bitcoin.\nAlternatively, however, I can very well sign my transaction and send\nit to an authority of my choosing to be included into the ledger, say\nBitFurry. - This is what I describe in option 1.\n\nIn order to protect my interest I do need to choose, maybe not today,\nbut eventually.\n\nI also think that people do care who processes transactions and a lot\nof bickering could be spared if we could choose.\n\nIf we assume a perfectly competitive market with 3 authorities that\ngovern the block space equally, the marginal cost of 1/3 of the block\nspace is the same for each, however, the marginal revenue absent of\nblock rewards is dependent on fees.\nIf people are willing to pay only a zero fee to a specific authority\nwhile a fee greater than zero to the others it's clear that one would\nbe less competitive.\n\nLet us assume the fees are 10% of the revenue and the cost is 95 we\nhave currently the following situation:\n\nA: Cost=95; Revenue=100; Profit=5\nB: Cost=95; Revenue=100; Profit=5\nC: Cost=95; Revenue=100; Profit=5\n\nWith transaction tiering, the outcome could be different!\n\nA: Cost=95; Revenue=90; Loss=5 // BSA that does not respect user interest.\nB: Cost=95; Revenue=105; Profit=10\nC: Cost=95; Revenue=105; Profit=10\n\nThis could motivate transaction processors to behave in accordance\nwith user interest, or am I missing something?\n\nBest Regards,\nMartin\n\n\u003e From: Tim Ruffing \u003ctim.ruffing at mmci.uni-saarland.de\u003e\n\u003e To: bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e Cc:\n\u003e Bcc:\n\u003e Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:18:26 +0100\n\u003e Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Inquiry: Transaction Tiering\n\u003e (I'm not a lawyer...)\n\u003e\n\u003e I'm not sure if I can make sense of your email.\n\u003e\n\u003e On Mon, 2017-03-20 at 20:12 +0000, Martin Stolze via bitcoin-dev wrote:\n\u003e\u003e As a participant in the economy in general and of Bitcoin in\n\u003e\u003e particular, I desire an ability to decide where I transact. The\n\u003e\u003e current state of Bitcoin does not allow me to choose my place of\n\u003e\u003e business. As a consequence, I try to learn what would be the best way\n\u003e\u003e to conduct my business in good faith. [2]\n\u003e\n\u003e Ignoring the rest, I don't think that the physical location /\n\u003e jurisdiction of the miner has any legal implications for law applicable\n\u003e to the relationship between sender and receiver of a payment.\n\u003e\n\u003e This is not particular to Bitcoin. We're both in Germany (I guess).\n\u003e Assume we have a contract without specific agreements and I pay you in\n\u003e Icelandic kronur via PayPal (in Luxembourg) and my HTTPS requests to\n\u003e PayPal went via Australia and the US. Then German law applies to our\n\u003e contract, nothing in the middle can change that.\n\u003e\n\u003e Also ignoring possible security implications, there is just no need for\n\u003e a mechanism that enables users to select miners. I claim that almost\n\u003e nobody cares who will mine a transaction, because it makes no technical\n\u003e difference. If you don't want a specific miner to mine your\n\u003e transaction, then don't use Bitcoin.\n\u003e\n\u003e Tim\n_______________________________________________\nbitcoin-dev mailing list\nbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\nhttps://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20170325/bfa2755f/attachment.html\u003e",
"sig": "0de8ea0ce375af07fc54376b9680518d8a8a8c2af005596b0a3ae4837ff015278954d27ebd830d80531dba625fb94c669f8e4f98b3602f32be7d552dd2295b4b"
}