📅 Original date posted:2015-11-13
📝 Original message:Well I'd like to think that with an economy all parts of it interact with each other in ways more complex than simplistic imperative logic.
I agree that the economic majority is essentially what matters in a hard fork but everyone (miners,devs,public thought leaders,businesses) is part of that economy. Additionally what miners signal as their intention affects the decision of that economic majority (and vice versa). You can see the effects of this in traditional political processes in how preliminary vote polling results affect (reinforce) the final vote.
We also can see the results of this in (dare I mention) the whole XT affair which had the signed intent of many of the economy (payment processors and wallets and one miner pool) and the rest of the miners did not go along with it. This experiment either means that the rest of the miners couldn't be bothered to signal at all (because they didn't know how) or they were affected by the influence of core devs or the opinions of others on the matter and rejected the economic majority. (Which would imply core devs have some power by way of indirect influence) I would be inclined to believe the latter was more likely.
The conclusion which this would seem to imply is that at the very least, miners matter (to what exact extent is debatable). And although there is no direct control of any party over the other in the strict sense, the public vocal opinions of any part of the Bitcoin economy does have an effect in its ability to sway the opinions of the other parts.
Digitsu
—
Regards,
On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Luke Dashjr <luke at dashjr.org> wrote:
> On Friday, November 13, 2015 4:01:09 PM digitsu at gmail.com wrote:
>> Forgive the frankness but I don't see why signaling your intent to support
>> an upgrade to one side of a hard fork can be seen as a bad thing. If for
>> nothing else doesn't this make for a smoother flag day? (Because once you
>> signal your intention, it makes it hard to back out on the commitment.)
> It isn't a commitment in any sense, nor does it make it smoother, because for
> a hardfork to be successful, it is the *economy* that must switch entirely.
> The miners are unimportant.
>> If miners don't have any choice in hard forks, who does? Just the core
>> devs?
> Devs have even less of a choice in the matter. What is relevant is the
> economy: who do people want to spend their bitcoins with? There is no
> programmatic way to determine this, especially not in advance, so the best we
> can do is a flag day that gets called off if there isn't clear consensus.
> Luke
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digitsu at gmail.com [ARCHIVE] /
npub1te…xca36
2023-06-07 17:44:37
in reply to nevent1q…uk8t
Author Public Key
npub1tezrev9k6yrwlul4wkham62skpgdsuxeyzr6w4mnphn0ldg463hsmxca36Seen on
wss://relay.nostr.bandPublished at
2023-06-07 17:44:37Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2015-11-13\n📝 Original message:Well I'd like to think that with an economy all parts of it interact with each other in ways more complex than simplistic imperative logic. \n\n\n\n\nI agree that the economic majority is essentially what matters in a hard fork but everyone (miners,devs,public thought leaders,businesses) is part of that economy. Additionally what miners signal as their intention affects the decision of that economic majority (and vice versa). You can see the effects of this in traditional political processes in how preliminary vote polling results affect (reinforce) the final vote. \n\nWe also can see the results of this in (dare I mention) the whole XT affair which had the signed intent of many of the economy (payment processors and wallets and one miner pool) and the rest of the miners did not go along with it. This experiment either means that the rest of the miners couldn't be bothered to signal at all (because they didn't know how) or they were affected by the influence of core devs or the opinions of others on the matter and rejected the economic majority. (Which would imply core devs have some power by way of indirect influence) I would be inclined to believe the latter was more likely. \n\n\n\n\nThe conclusion which this would seem to imply is that at the very least, miners matter (to what exact extent is debatable). And although there is no direct control of any party over the other in the strict sense, the public vocal opinions of any part of the Bitcoin economy does have an effect in its ability to sway the opinions of the other parts. \n\n\n\n\nDigitsu\n\n\n\n—\nRegards,\n\nOn Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Luke Dashjr \u003cluke at dashjr.org\u003e wrote:\n\n\u003e On Friday, November 13, 2015 4:01:09 PM digitsu at gmail.com wrote:\n\u003e\u003e Forgive the frankness but I don't see why signaling your intent to support\n\u003e\u003e an upgrade to one side of a hard fork can be seen as a bad thing. If for\n\u003e\u003e nothing else doesn't this make for a smoother flag day? (Because once you\n\u003e\u003e signal your intention, it makes it hard to back out on the commitment.)\n\u003e It isn't a commitment in any sense, nor does it make it smoother, because for \n\u003e a hardfork to be successful, it is the *economy* that must switch entirely. \n\u003e The miners are unimportant.\n\u003e\u003e If miners don't have any choice in hard forks, who does? Just the core\n\u003e\u003e devs? \n\u003e Devs have even less of a choice in the matter. What is relevant is the \n\u003e economy: who do people want to spend their bitcoins with? There is no \n\u003e programmatic way to determine this, especially not in advance, so the best we \n\u003e can do is a flag day that gets called off if there isn't clear consensus.\n\u003e Luke\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20151113/5cadc0d6/attachment.html\u003e",
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