npub1kpwlxpzkxfmuxjmzc2wp3rf9vjg0sgydmlhsnrgqr3maf59h86qqdxxzz4 (npub1kpw…xzz4)
“Words are important, you tried to claim they were just immigrants at the get go…”
Right. That is one of my like 2 central claims here. I’m glad that came across clearly. ;)
“you can always just ask if they confuse you.”
I did, many times. I do feel like you aren’t reading my clarifying questions sometimes; if you want to use hyperbolic rhetoric to describe things, I’d appreciate it if you would throw me a bone! I’ll try to be more concise and clear. Maybe that was part of the problem.
“I mean they literally showed up with weapons and killed and shot the other side to take the land…”
Ok again I don’t know what this means. I will ask to clarify. Are you suggesting that the Jewish refugees from Russian pogroms in the early 1900s were all professional soldiers that came off the ship with guns ablazing, killing all the Arabs they could see? (That seems obviously not remotely the case but you keep saying this so I am confused!)
“In fact to become an Israel citizen you are required to pick up a weapon and shoot the other side by israel law.”
Again, mystified. Are you for reasons unknown talking about the state of Israel’s conscription policy? (Which was instituted much later than the events we’re discussing? Or at least I think they are haha…)
The Jews did militarize throughout the early 1900s after the violence caused by the immigration-related tension, is that instead what you mean? Just curious: was this mandatory-participation? Can you point me to a source about that? (Not that I consider it all that significant, but I would find it surprising.) (Incidentally and apropos of nothing, this militarization is probably why they won the 48/49 war.)
“Well maybe thats why you shouldnt invade another country and take their land by force that you havent had any right to in over 2000+ years…”
Again, unclear: are you still talking about colonial empires (Turks/Brits)? (That feels like the context here, maybe.) If so: again, I wholeheartedly agree. In talking to you here I’m wondering if, in a sense, this is all their “fault”: if the area had been locally governed by a just and popularly-supported government all those centuries, they could have maybe done a much better job managing any waves of refugees during the 1900s. (This would not be the only example of intractable violence after the dissolution of colonialism in the latter 1900s!)
Ok I feel like we disagree about two main things:
(1) The motives or color of the Jewish immigration ~1900–47. You seem to be imputing evil (e.g. “invasion”) to, what, like a half million people, over many decades, many of them escaping genocidal violence. To me, that always seems suspect: there are definitely times when this sort of thing has happened, but the null hypothesis to me is always going to be: mostly people just trying to live their lives, with some assholes. There is a huge tendency though generally to ascribe evil conspiratorial motives to anything the Jews do throughout history, so this coloring is not surprising. (Again though you made a good point about the British probably making things worse in a variety of ways.)
(2) How much (1) matters when describing the moral implications of what Israel or Hamas or anyone else is doing in modern times. You have what I feel is kind of an idealistic desire to right all historical wrongs. To me I feel like a pretty extreme take on (1) would be necessary to justify the kinds of things you’re talking about, like “invasion-by-good-guys”, reparations, ethnic cleansing and mass forced migrations, etc. And even then I don’t think they would justify them: several generations have passed and your proposals would cause truly enormous, trail-of-tears–level, human suffering. (But see below about how we probably do agree on a lot!)
I suspect we agree on a lot of things (I’m sure I’m mostly ignorant of the details around these issues, though, so I’ll try not to say too much):
Israel needs to do a better job with due process kinds of things: bulldozing houses, unjustly condemning property, and so on. Israel needs to find less violent ways of enforcing its borders against protesters. (This is hard though!) Israel needs to do a better job protecting Palestinians from crimes by Jewish settlers. Any fight against Hamas right now needs to be done with an absolute minimum of civilian casualties. Israel and Egypt probably need to operate in better faith about letting non-military trade good into Gaza. (The whole open-air prison thing.) Israel should probably find ways to unoccupy the West Bank etc now-ish. US aid should probably be contingent on those things.
(I think these there are the kind of thing you’re getting at with a lot of your rhetoric about Israeli abuse of Palestine in modern times, yes?)
Erik Haugen /
npub1ad…kc3s6
2023-10-14 23:37:14
in reply to nevent1q…35ks
Author Public Key
npub1adavm6dq36ya04x25l2rq9dz22ct37rlcc8hm8yu5dvrm6g05s3swkc3s6Published at
2023-10-14 23:37:14Event JSON
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