📅 Original date posted:2014-05-03
📝 Original message:Context as a disambiguator works fine when the interlocutors
understand the topics they're talking about.
Not a day goes by without me seeing "neurotypical people" get horribly
confused between RAM and Hard Drive sizes, because they share the same
units (not that that can be helped, as the units are supposed to be
the same, base 1000 vs 1024 notwithstanding).
Bit (as a unit) is already really confusing for anyone who doesn't
deal with it on a regular basis. I think people who don't see an issue
are making an assumption based on their own lack of confusion. We
understand computer science AND Bitcoin. Most people have zero
understanding of either.
Bitcoin already has a ton of issues with terrible names for things:
- Mining (for transaction validation).
- Addresses (which are meant to be one-time use, and don't even really
exist at the network level).
- Wallets (which don't hold your bitcoins, can be copied, and all
backups can be stolen from equally).
I end up having to make the distinctions obvious every time I explain
Bitcoin to someone new to it. There's an acceptable tradeoff here,
because there were arguably no better words to assign to these
concepts (although I'd argue mining is a really awful metaphor, and is
the one that prompts the most questions from people). Then add to the
pile a bunch of third parties naming themselves after parts of the
protocol (Coinbase,Blockchain.info). Not blaming them for it, but I've
definitiely seen average people get confused between "the blockchain"
and "blockchain.info" (not so much Coinbase, because that name doesn't
come up in beginner explanations).
It seems downright masochistic to add
yet-another-word-that-doesn't-mean-what-you-think-it-means to the pile
for no reason other than aesthetics. Are we actively trying to confuse
people?
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 1:41 AM, Aaron Voisine <voisine at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have to agree with Mike. Human language is surprisingly tolerant of
> overloading and inference from context. Neurotypical people have no
> problem with it and perceive a software engineer's aversion to it as
> being pedantic and strange. Note that "bits" was a term for a unit of
> money long before the invention of digital computers.
>
> Aaron
>
> There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole
> government working for you -- Will Rodgers
>
>
> On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Gordon Mohr <gojomo at gmail.com> wrote:
>> [resend - apologies if duplicate]
>>
>> Microbitcoin is a good-sized unit, workable for everyday transaction
>> values, with room-to-grow, and a nice relationship to satoshis as 'cents'.
>>
>> But "bits" has problems as a unit name.
>>
>> "Bits" will be especially problematic whenever people try to graduate
>> from informal use to understanding the system internals - that is, when
>> the real "bits" of key sizes, hash sizes, and storage/bandwidth needs
>> become important. The "bit" as "binary digit" was important enough that
>> Satoshi named the system after it; that homage gets lost if the word is
>> muddied with a new retconned meaning that's quite different.
>>
>> Some examples of possible problems:
>>
>> * If "bit" equals "100 satoshis", then the natural-language unpacking of
>> "bit-coin" is "100 satoshi coin", which runs against all prior usage.
>>
>> * If people are informed that a "256-bit private key" is what ultimately
>> controls their balances, it could prompt confusion like, "if each key
>> has 256-bits, will I need 40 keys to hold 10,000.00 bits?"
>>
>> * When people learn that there are 8 bits to a byte, they may think,
>> "OK, my wallet holding my 80,000.00 bits will then take up 10 kilobytes".
>>
>> * When people naturally extend "bit" into "kilobits" to mean "1000
>> bits", then the new coinage "kilobits" will mean the exact same amount
>> (100,000 satoshi) as many have already been calling "millibits".
>>
>> I believe it'd be best to pick a new made-up single-syllable word as a
>> synonym for "microbitcoin", and I've laid out the case for "zib" as that
>> word at <http://zibcoin.org>;.
>>
>> 'Zib' also lends itself to an expressive unicode symbol, 'Ƶ'
>> (Z-with-stroke), that remains distinctive even if it loses its stroke or
>> gets case-reversed. (Comparatively, all 'b'-derived symbols for
>> data-bits, bitcoins, or '100 satoshi bits' risk collision in contexts
>> where subtleties of casing/stroking are lost.)
>>
>> (There's summary of more problems with "bit" in the zibcoin.org FAQ at:
>> <http://zibcoin.org/faq#why-not-bits-to-mean-microbitcoins>;.)
>>
>> - Gordon
>>
>> On 5/1/14, 3:35 PM, Aaron Voisine wrote:
>>> I'm also a big fan of standardizing on microBTC as the standard unit.
>>> I didn't like the name "bits" at first, but the more I think about it,
>>> the more I like it. The main thing going for it is the fact that it's
>>> part of the name bitcoin. If Bitcoin is the protocol and network, bits
>>> are an obvious choice for the currency unit.
>>>
>>> I would like to propose using Unicode character U+0180, lowercase b
>>> with stroke, as the symbol to represent the microBTC denomination,
>>> whether we call bits or something else:
>>> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0180/index.htm
>>>
>>> Another candidate is Unicode character U+2422, the blank symbol, but I
>>> prefer stroke b.
>>> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2422/index.htm
>>>
>>> Aaron
>>>
>>> There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole
>>> government working for you -- Will Rodgers
>>>
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 5:41 AM, "Pieter Wuille" <pieter.wuille at gm...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:37 AM, "Un Ix" <slashdevnull at ...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Something tells me this would be reduced to a single syllable in common
>>>>> usage I.e. bit.
>>>>
>>>> What units will be called colloquially is not something developers will
>>>> determine. It will vary, depend on language and culture, and is not
>>>> relevant to this discussion in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> It may well be that people in some geographic or language area will end up
>>>> (or for a while) calling 1e-06 BTC "bits". That's fine, but using that as
>>>> "official" name in software would be very strange and potentially confusing
>>>> in my opinion. As mentioned by others, that would seem to me like calling
>>>> dollars "bucks" in bank software. Nobody seems to have a problem with
>>>> having colloquial names, but "US dollar" or "euro" are far less ambiguous
>>>> than "bit". I think we need a more distinctive name.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Pieter
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE
>>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get
>>> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available.
>>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE
>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get
>> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available.
>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE
> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get
> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available.
> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Christophe Biocca [ARCHIVE] /
npub1mt…9g5zm
2023-06-07 15:20:36
in reply to nevent1q…jsap
Author Public Key
npub1mtxs7jztn027d9cylej99hltqq9vq84uxm80zl4naxafd9hpxqwsj9g5zmPublished at
2023-06-07 15:20:36Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2014-05-03\n📝 Original message:Context as a disambiguator works fine when the interlocutors\nunderstand the topics they're talking about.\nNot a day goes by without me seeing \"neurotypical people\" get horribly\nconfused between RAM and Hard Drive sizes, because they share the same\nunits (not that that can be helped, as the units are supposed to be\nthe same, base 1000 vs 1024 notwithstanding).\n\nBit (as a unit) is already really confusing for anyone who doesn't\ndeal with it on a regular basis. I think people who don't see an issue\nare making an assumption based on their own lack of confusion. We\nunderstand computer science AND Bitcoin. Most people have zero\nunderstanding of either.\n\nBitcoin already has a ton of issues with terrible names for things:\n\n- Mining (for transaction validation).\n- Addresses (which are meant to be one-time use, and don't even really\nexist at the network level).\n- Wallets (which don't hold your bitcoins, can be copied, and all\nbackups can be stolen from equally).\n\nI end up having to make the distinctions obvious every time I explain\nBitcoin to someone new to it. There's an acceptable tradeoff here,\nbecause there were arguably no better words to assign to these\nconcepts (although I'd argue mining is a really awful metaphor, and is\nthe one that prompts the most questions from people). Then add to the\npile a bunch of third parties naming themselves after parts of the\nprotocol (Coinbase,Blockchain.info). Not blaming them for it, but I've\ndefinitiely seen average people get confused between \"the blockchain\"\nand \"blockchain.info\" (not so much Coinbase, because that name doesn't\ncome up in beginner explanations).\n\nIt seems downright masochistic to add\nyet-another-word-that-doesn't-mean-what-you-think-it-means to the pile\nfor no reason other than aesthetics. Are we actively trying to confuse\npeople?\n\nOn Sat, May 3, 2014 at 1:41 AM, Aaron Voisine \u003cvoisine at gmail.com\u003e wrote:\n\u003e I have to agree with Mike. Human language is surprisingly tolerant of\n\u003e overloading and inference from context. Neurotypical people have no\n\u003e problem with it and perceive a software engineer's aversion to it as\n\u003e being pedantic and strange. Note that \"bits\" was a term for a unit of\n\u003e money long before the invention of digital computers.\n\u003e\n\u003e Aaron\n\u003e\n\u003e There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole\n\u003e government working for you -- Will Rodgers\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Gordon Mohr \u003cgojomo at gmail.com\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e [resend - apologies if duplicate]\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Microbitcoin is a good-sized unit, workable for everyday transaction\n\u003e\u003e values, with room-to-grow, and a nice relationship to satoshis as 'cents'.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e But \"bits\" has problems as a unit name.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \"Bits\" will be especially problematic whenever people try to graduate\n\u003e\u003e from informal use to understanding the system internals - that is, when\n\u003e\u003e the real \"bits\" of key sizes, hash sizes, and storage/bandwidth needs\n\u003e\u003e become important. The \"bit\" as \"binary digit\" was important enough that\n\u003e\u003e Satoshi named the system after it; that homage gets lost if the word is\n\u003e\u003e muddied with a new retconned meaning that's quite different.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Some examples of possible problems:\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e * If \"bit\" equals \"100 satoshis\", then the natural-language unpacking of\n\u003e\u003e \"bit-coin\" is \"100 satoshi coin\", which runs against all prior usage.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e * If people are informed that a \"256-bit private key\" is what ultimately\n\u003e\u003e controls their balances, it could prompt confusion like, \"if each key\n\u003e\u003e has 256-bits, will I need 40 keys to hold 10,000.00 bits?\"\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e * When people learn that there are 8 bits to a byte, they may think,\n\u003e\u003e \"OK, my wallet holding my 80,000.00 bits will then take up 10 kilobytes\".\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e * When people naturally extend \"bit\" into \"kilobits\" to mean \"1000\n\u003e\u003e bits\", then the new coinage \"kilobits\" will mean the exact same amount\n\u003e\u003e (100,000 satoshi) as many have already been calling \"millibits\".\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e I believe it'd be best to pick a new made-up single-syllable word as a\n\u003e\u003e synonym for \"microbitcoin\", and I've laid out the case for \"zib\" as that\n\u003e\u003e word at \u003chttp://zibcoin.org\u003e.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e 'Zib' also lends itself to an expressive unicode symbol, 'Ƶ'\n\u003e\u003e (Z-with-stroke), that remains distinctive even if it loses its stroke or\n\u003e\u003e gets case-reversed. (Comparatively, all 'b'-derived symbols for\n\u003e\u003e data-bits, bitcoins, or '100 satoshi bits' risk collision in contexts\n\u003e\u003e where subtleties of casing/stroking are lost.)\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e (There's summary of more problems with \"bit\" in the zibcoin.org FAQ at:\n\u003e\u003e \u003chttp://zibcoin.org/faq#why-not-bits-to-mean-microbitcoins\u003e.)\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e - Gordon\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e On 5/1/14, 3:35 PM, Aaron Voisine wrote:\n\u003e\u003e\u003e I'm also a big fan of standardizing on microBTC as the standard unit.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e I didn't like the name \"bits\" at first, but the more I think about it,\n\u003e\u003e\u003e the more I like it. The main thing going for it is the fact that it's\n\u003e\u003e\u003e part of the name bitcoin. If Bitcoin is the protocol and network, bits\n\u003e\u003e\u003e are an obvious choice for the currency unit.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e I would like to propose using Unicode character U+0180, lowercase b\n\u003e\u003e\u003e with stroke, as the symbol to represent the microBTC denomination,\n\u003e\u003e\u003e whether we call bits or something else:\n\u003e\u003e\u003e http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0180/index.htm\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Another candidate is Unicode character U+2422, the blank symbol, but I\n\u003e\u003e\u003e prefer stroke b.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2422/index.htm\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Aaron\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole\n\u003e\u003e\u003e government working for you -- Will Rodgers\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e On Apr 21, 2014 5:41 AM, \"Pieter Wuille\" \u003cpieter.wuille at gm...\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e On Apr 21, 2014 3:37 AM, \"Un Ix\" \u003cslashdevnull at ...\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Something tells me this would be reduced to a single syllable in common\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e usage I.e. bit.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e What units will be called colloquially is not something developers will\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e determine. It will vary, depend on language and culture, and is not\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e relevant to this discussion in my opinion.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e It may well be that people in some geographic or language area will end up\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e (or for a while) calling 1e-06 BTC \"bits\". That's fine, but using that as\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \"official\" name in software would be very strange and potentially confusing\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e in my opinion. As mentioned by others, that would seem to me like calling\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e dollars \"bucks\" in bank software. Nobody seems to have a problem with\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e having colloquial names, but \"US dollar\" or \"euro\" are far less ambiguous\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e than \"bit\". I think we need a more distinctive name.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e --\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Pieter\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e ------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e\u003e \"Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get\n\u003e\u003e\u003e unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free.\"\n\u003e\u003e\u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs\n\u003e\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e ------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e \"Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE\n\u003e\u003e Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get\n\u003e\u003e unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available.\n\u003e\u003e Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free.\"\n\u003e\u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs\n\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\n\u003e ------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e \"Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE\n\u003e Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get\n\u003e unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available.\n\u003e Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free.\"\n\u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs\n\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development",
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