📅 Original date posted:2015-07-29
📝 Original message:> Cheapest way to send value? Is this what Bitcoin is trying to do? So
> all of the smart contract, programmable money, consensus coding and
> tremendous developer effort is bent to the consumer demand for cheaper
> fees. Surely thou jests!
These other features can be replicated into any alternative blockchain,
including those with lower fees. In the open-source world of
cryptocurrency, no feature will remain a value-add for very long after it
has been identified to be such. Anything adding value will quickly be
absorbed into competing alternative blockchains. That will leave economic
policy as the distinguishing factor.
> ... it is not the case ... that reluctance to concede
> blocksize is an attempt to constrain capacity. Greg Maxwell thoroughly
> explained in this thread that the protocol's current state of
> development relies on blocksize for security and, ultimately, as a
> means of protecting its degree of decentralization.
A slow or lack of increase to maximum transaction rate will cause pressure
on fees. Whether this is the desired goal is not relevant. Everyone has
agreed this will be the outcome. As to a smaller block size being needed
for additional decentralization, one must simply ask how much we are all
willing to pay for that additional decentralization. It is likely that the
benefit thereto will have to be demonstrated by some power attacking and
destroying a less decentralized currency before the benefit of this feature
is given monetary value by the market. Until then, value will bleed to the
network with the least friction, because it will have the greatest ability
to grow its network effect. That means the blockchain with adequate
features and cheapest fees will eventually have the largest market share.
-----Original Message-----
From: Venzen Khaosan
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 3:11 PM
To: Raystonn .
Cc: bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measure
isn'ttemporary
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Raystonn, I'm aware that you're addressing your question to Greg
Maxwell, however a point you keep stating as fact calls for reference:
On 07/30/2015 04:28 AM, Raystonn . via bitcoin-dev wrote:
[snip]
> How do you plan to address the bleeding of value from Bitcoin to
> alternative lower-fee blockchains created by the artificially-high
> bitcoin transaction fees when users begin looking for the cheapest
> way to send value?
Cheapest way to send value? Is this what Bitcoin is trying to do? So
all of the smart contract, programmable money, consensus coding and
tremendous developer effort is bent to the consumer demand for cheaper
fees. Surely thou jests!
> Modern economic study has shown that liquidity moves to the
> location of least friction.
Modern economic study? Can you please provide a link or reference to
the study you are referring to.
"liquidity moves to the location of least friction"
This sounds like "econo-speak" and makes no sense. The definition of
Liquidity is the degree to which an asset/security can be bought or
sold in the market without affecting the price.
That is why bitcoin is said to have low liquidity: buying or selling
only 100 BTC visibly affects the exchange price. You probably mean
"people like cheap fees", which is true, but as others have said,
because of Bitcoin's powerful features, they are willing to pay higher
fees and wait longer for transactions to execute.
As for your public cross-examination of Greg Maxwell, your case seems
to be made on the assumption that limiting the size of the blockchain
is an attempt to artificially raise tx fees, but it is not the case
(as you and others repeatedly argue) that reluctance to concede
blocksize is an attempt to constrain capacity. Greg Maxwell thoroughly
explained in this thread that the protocol's current state of
development relies on blocksize for security and, ultimately, as a
means of protecting its degree of decentralization.
Surely, this is an obvious concern even for those who are campaigning
for the hare-brained ideal of making Bitcoin a "faster, cheaper
alternative" to visa or paypal? If we lose decentralization, we lose
the whole thing, right? Incorrect or correct?
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Raystonn . [ARCHIVE] /
npub18e…20rmx
2023-06-07 15:43:56
in reply to nevent1q…dgty
Author Public Key
npub18e464uqlzh9e8qm5dmnurg39za2s9t9uxg608eppvzkhr5q3uzfqg20rmxPublished at
2023-06-07 15:43:56Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2015-07-29\n📝 Original message:\u003e Cheapest way to send value? Is this what Bitcoin is trying to do? So\n\u003e all of the smart contract, programmable money, consensus coding and\n\u003e tremendous developer effort is bent to the consumer demand for cheaper\n\u003e fees. Surely thou jests!\n\nThese other features can be replicated into any alternative blockchain, \nincluding those with lower fees. In the open-source world of \ncryptocurrency, no feature will remain a value-add for very long after it \nhas been identified to be such. Anything adding value will quickly be \nabsorbed into competing alternative blockchains. That will leave economic \npolicy as the distinguishing factor.\n\n\u003e ... it is not the case ... that reluctance to concede\n\u003e blocksize is an attempt to constrain capacity. Greg Maxwell thoroughly\n\u003e explained in this thread that the protocol's current state of\n\u003e development relies on blocksize for security and, ultimately, as a\n\u003e means of protecting its degree of decentralization.\n\nA slow or lack of increase to maximum transaction rate will cause pressure \non fees. Whether this is the desired goal is not relevant. Everyone has \nagreed this will be the outcome. As to a smaller block size being needed \nfor additional decentralization, one must simply ask how much we are all \nwilling to pay for that additional decentralization. It is likely that the \nbenefit thereto will have to be demonstrated by some power attacking and \ndestroying a less decentralized currency before the benefit of this feature \nis given monetary value by the market. Until then, value will bleed to the \nnetwork with the least friction, because it will have the greatest ability \nto grow its network effect. That means the blockchain with adequate \nfeatures and cheapest fees will eventually have the largest market share.\n\n\n-----Original Message----- \nFrom: Venzen Khaosan\nSent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 3:11 PM\nTo: Raystonn .\nCc: bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\nSubject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measure \nisn'ttemporary\n\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA1\n\nRaystonn, I'm aware that you're addressing your question to Greg\nMaxwell, however a point you keep stating as fact calls for reference:\n\nOn 07/30/2015 04:28 AM, Raystonn . via bitcoin-dev wrote:\n[snip]\n\u003e How do you plan to address the bleeding of value from Bitcoin to\n\u003e alternative lower-fee blockchains created by the artificially-high\n\u003e bitcoin transaction fees when users begin looking for the cheapest\n\u003e way to send value?\nCheapest way to send value? Is this what Bitcoin is trying to do? So\nall of the smart contract, programmable money, consensus coding and\ntremendous developer effort is bent to the consumer demand for cheaper\nfees. Surely thou jests!\n\n\u003e Modern economic study has shown that liquidity moves to the\n\u003e location of least friction.\nModern economic study? Can you please provide a link or reference to\nthe study you are referring to.\n\n\"liquidity moves to the location of least friction\"\n\nThis sounds like \"econo-speak\" and makes no sense. The definition of\nLiquidity is the degree to which an asset/security can be bought or\nsold in the market without affecting the price.\n\nThat is why bitcoin is said to have low liquidity: buying or selling\nonly 100 BTC visibly affects the exchange price. You probably mean\n\"people like cheap fees\", which is true, but as others have said,\nbecause of Bitcoin's powerful features, they are willing to pay higher\nfees and wait longer for transactions to execute.\n\nAs for your public cross-examination of Greg Maxwell, your case seems\nto be made on the assumption that limiting the size of the blockchain\nis an attempt to artificially raise tx fees, but it is not the case\n(as you and others repeatedly argue) that reluctance to concede\nblocksize is an attempt to constrain capacity. Greg Maxwell thoroughly\nexplained in this thread that the protocol's current state of\ndevelopment relies on blocksize for security and, ultimately, as a\nmeans of protecting its degree of decentralization.\n\nSurely, this is an obvious concern even for those who are campaigning\nfor the hare-brained ideal of making Bitcoin a \"faster, cheaper\nalternative\" to visa or paypal? If we lose decentralization, we lose\nthe whole thing, right? Incorrect or correct?\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nVersion: GnuPG v1\n\niQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVuU+rAAoJEGwAhlQc8H1m9nkH/00xXJ53H4qvHjPrdNRniwvB\nRXi96QjbnVj/fxU2J2TBPYF1LxJ13avyL58bbaJF7GKqcpoYNZArCKLQyGaZGCTp\nh7Oe/0S+b1QCrvxcVK8Ikeb7a1h9wnhAPf1FvAWoJ1cFGx/qGHetKqx1dQTWkVWz\nMp17vjaofmp2OhBzh0Smj+wV9hXn9w9giZKc6UGvC0Qc7Rf3GL/YVJzM2CZNvlLS\nYhQSqnnqduugYztqLV/NvNExF41zC2IMyNmA41q46v/nh8stNSIcJleD39csNMfx\nBXjrlnPfZ+JI4RhiH3I0qjOYWPtBH9od788DY509EOn3MT4vU+EVcQaxyuFqZyw=\n=lQvy\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----",
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