📅 Original date posted:2017-03-28
📝 Original message:Alphonse,
Even when several of the experts involved in the document you refer has my respect and admiration, I do not agree with some of their conclusions some of their estimations are not accurate other changed like Bootstrap Time, Cost per Confirmed Transaction they consider a network of 450,000,00 GH and today is 3.594.236.966 GH, the energy consumption per GH is old, the cost of electricity is wrong even when the document was made and is hard to find any parameter used that is valid for an analysis today.
Again with all respect to the experts involved in that analysis is not valid today.
I tend to believe more in Moore’s law, Butters' Law of Photonics and Kryder’s Law all has been verified for many years and support that 32 MB in 2020 are possible and equals or less than 1 MB in 2010.
Again may be is not possible Johnson Lau and LukeJr invested a significant amount of time investigating ways to do a safe HF, and may be not possible to do a safe HF today but from processing power, bandwidth and storage is totally valid and Wang Chung proposal has solid grounds.
Regards
Juan
From: Alphonse Pace [mailto:alp.bitcoin at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 2:53 PM
To: Juan Garavaglia <jg at 112bit.com>; Wang Chun <1240902 at gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hard fork proposal from last week's meeting
Juan,
I suggest you take a look at this paper: http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/CDE+16.pdf It may help you form opinions based in science rather than what appears to be nothing more than a hunch. It shows that even 4MB is unsafe. SegWit provides up to this limit.
8MB is most definitely not safe today.
Whether it is unsafe or impossible is the topic, since Wang Chun proposed making the block size limit 32MiB.
Wang Chun,
Can you specify what meeting you are talking about? You seem to have not replied on that point. Who were the participants and what was the purpose of this meeting?
-Alphonse
On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Juan Garavaglia <jg at 112bit.com<mailto:jg at 112bit.com>> wrote:
Alphonse,
In my opinion if 1MB limit was ok in 2010, 8MB limit is ok on 2016 and 32MB limit valid in next halving, from network, storage and CPU perspective or 1MB was too high in 2010 what is possible or 1MB is to low today.
If is unsafe or impossible to raise the blocksize is a different topic.
Regards
Juan
From: bitcoin-dev-bounces at lists.linuxfoundation.org<mailto:bitcoin-dev-bounces at lists.linuxfoundation.org> [mailto:bitcoin-dev-bounces at lists.linuxfoundation.org<mailto:bitcoin-dev-bounces at lists.linuxfoundation.org>] On Behalf Of Alphonse Pace via bitcoin-dev
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 2:24 PM
To: Wang Chun <1240902 at gmail.com<mailto:1240902 at gmail.com>>; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org<mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hard fork proposal from last week's meeting
What meeting are you referring to? Who were the participants?
Removing the limit but relying on the p2p protocol is not really a true 32MiB limit, but a limit of whatever transport methods provide. This can lead to differing consensus if alternative layers for relaying are used. What you seem to be asking for is an unbound block size (or at least determined by whatever miners produce). This has the possibility (and even likelihood) of removing many participants from the network, including many small miners.
32MB in less than 3 years also appears to be far beyond limits of safety which are known to exist far sooner, and we cannot expect hardware and networking layers to improve by those amounts in that time.
It also seems like it would be much better to wait until SegWit activates in order to truly measure the effects on the network from this increased capacity before committing to any additional increases.
-Alphonse
On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:59 AM, Wang Chun via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org<mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
I've proposed this hard fork approach last year in Hong Kong Consensus
but immediately rejected by coredevs at that meeting, after more than
one year it seems that lots of people haven't heard of it. So I would
post this here again for comment.
The basic idea is, as many of us agree, hard fork is risky and should
be well prepared. We need a long time to deploy it.
Despite spam tx on the network, the block capacity is approaching its
limit, and we must think ahead. Shall we code a patch right now, to
remove the block size limit of 1MB, but not activate it until far in
the future. I would propose to remove the 1MB limit at the next block
halving in spring 2020, only limit the block size to 32MiB which is
the maximum size the current p2p protocol allows. This patch must be
in the immediate next release of Bitcoin Core.
With this patch in core's next release, Bitcoin works just as before,
no fork will ever occur, until spring 2020. But everyone knows there
will be a fork scheduled. Third party services, libraries, wallets and
exchanges will have enough time to prepare for it over the next three
years.
We don't yet have an agreement on how to increase the block size
limit. There have been many proposals over the past years, like
BIP100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 109, 148, 248, BU, and so
on. These hard fork proposals, with this patch already in Core's
release, they all become soft fork. We'll have enough time to discuss
all these proposals and decide which one to go. Take an example, if we
choose to fork to only 2MB, since 32MiB already scheduled, reduce it
from 32MiB to 2MB will be a soft fork.
Anyway, we must code something right now, before it becomes too late.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org<mailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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Juan Garavaglia [ARCHIVE] /
npub15r…fpkwv
2023-06-07 17:58:08
in reply to nevent1q…p3w8
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2023-06-07 17:58:08Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2017-03-28\n📝 Original message:Alphonse,\n\nEven when several of the experts involved in the document you refer has my respect and admiration, I do not agree with some of their conclusions some of their estimations are not accurate other changed like Bootstrap Time, Cost per Confirmed Transaction they consider a network of 450,000,00 GH and today is 3.594.236.966 GH, the energy consumption per GH is old, the cost of electricity is wrong even when the document was made and is hard to find any parameter used that is valid for an analysis today.\n\nAgain with all respect to the experts involved in that analysis is not valid today.\n\nI tend to believe more in Moore’s law, Butters' Law of Photonics and Kryder’s Law all has been verified for many years and support that 32 MB in 2020 are possible and equals or less than 1 MB in 2010.\n\nAgain may be is not possible Johnson Lau and LukeJr invested a significant amount of time investigating ways to do a safe HF, and may be not possible to do a safe HF today but from processing power, bandwidth and storage is totally valid and Wang Chung proposal has solid grounds.\n\nRegards\n\nJuan\n\n\nFrom: Alphonse Pace [mailto:alp.bitcoin at gmail.com]\nSent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 2:53 PM\nTo: Juan Garavaglia \u003cjg at 112bit.com\u003e; Wang Chun \u003c1240902 at gmail.com\u003e\nCc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion \u003cbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e\nSubject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hard fork proposal from last week's meeting\n\nJuan,\n\nI suggest you take a look at this paper: http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/CDE+16.pdf It may help you form opinions based in science rather than what appears to be nothing more than a hunch. It shows that even 4MB is unsafe. SegWit provides up to this limit.\n\n8MB is most definitely not safe today.\n\nWhether it is unsafe or impossible is the topic, since Wang Chun proposed making the block size limit 32MiB.\n\n\nWang Chun,\n\nCan you specify what meeting you are talking about? You seem to have not replied on that point. Who were the participants and what was the purpose of this meeting?\n\n-Alphonse\n\nOn Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Juan Garavaglia \u003cjg at 112bit.com\u003cmailto:jg at 112bit.com\u003e\u003e wrote:\nAlphonse,\n\nIn my opinion if 1MB limit was ok in 2010, 8MB limit is ok on 2016 and 32MB limit valid in next halving, from network, storage and CPU perspective or 1MB was too high in 2010 what is possible or 1MB is to low today.\n\nIf is unsafe or impossible to raise the blocksize is a different topic.\n\nRegards\n\nJuan\n\n\nFrom: bitcoin-dev-bounces at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003cmailto:bitcoin-dev-bounces at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e [mailto:bitcoin-dev-bounces at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003cmailto:bitcoin-dev-bounces at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e] On Behalf Of Alphonse Pace via bitcoin-dev\nSent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 2:24 PM\nTo: Wang Chun \u003c1240902 at gmail.com\u003cmailto:1240902 at gmail.com\u003e\u003e; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion \u003cbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003cmailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e\u003e\nSubject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hard fork proposal from last week's meeting\n\nWhat meeting are you referring to? Who were the participants?\n\nRemoving the limit but relying on the p2p protocol is not really a true 32MiB limit, but a limit of whatever transport methods provide. This can lead to differing consensus if alternative layers for relaying are used. What you seem to be asking for is an unbound block size (or at least determined by whatever miners produce). This has the possibility (and even likelihood) of removing many participants from the network, including many small miners.\n\n32MB in less than 3 years also appears to be far beyond limits of safety which are known to exist far sooner, and we cannot expect hardware and networking layers to improve by those amounts in that time.\n\nIt also seems like it would be much better to wait until SegWit activates in order to truly measure the effects on the network from this increased capacity before committing to any additional increases.\n\n-Alphonse\n\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:59 AM, Wang Chun via bitcoin-dev \u003cbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003cmailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e\u003e wrote:\nI've proposed this hard fork approach last year in Hong Kong Consensus\nbut immediately rejected by coredevs at that meeting, after more than\none year it seems that lots of people haven't heard of it. So I would\npost this here again for comment.\n\nThe basic idea is, as many of us agree, hard fork is risky and should\nbe well prepared. We need a long time to deploy it.\n\nDespite spam tx on the network, the block capacity is approaching its\nlimit, and we must think ahead. Shall we code a patch right now, to\nremove the block size limit of 1MB, but not activate it until far in\nthe future. I would propose to remove the 1MB limit at the next block\nhalving in spring 2020, only limit the block size to 32MiB which is\nthe maximum size the current p2p protocol allows. This patch must be\nin the immediate next release of Bitcoin Core.\n\nWith this patch in core's next release, Bitcoin works just as before,\nno fork will ever occur, until spring 2020. But everyone knows there\nwill be a fork scheduled. Third party services, libraries, wallets and\nexchanges will have enough time to prepare for it over the next three\nyears.\n\nWe don't yet have an agreement on how to increase the block size\nlimit. There have been many proposals over the past years, like\nBIP100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 109, 148, 248, BU, and so\non. These hard fork proposals, with this patch already in Core's\nrelease, they all become soft fork. We'll have enough time to discuss\nall these proposals and decide which one to go. Take an example, if we\nchoose to fork to only 2MB, since 32MiB already scheduled, reduce it\nfrom 32MiB to 2MB will be a soft fork.\n\nAnyway, we must code something right now, before it becomes too late.\n_______________________________________________\nbitcoin-dev mailing list\nbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003cmailto:bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e\nhttps://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\n\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20170328/ac730df1/attachment-0001.html\u003e",
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