📅 Original date posted:2015-10-18
📝 Original message:
> It only works if you actually setup a channel, though -- so you have to
> lock some money into the channel for however many confirmations until
> the channel activates, before you can test, plus the OP_CSV delay if
> the test fails.
And there's the catch. If an attacker achieves nodes opening up
channels with him, he already succeeded in vandalism. Furthermore, an
attacker can always play by the rules and forward all payments up to
one point where he stops. And even worse, if everyone connect to his
nodes, he can relay all payments, but he is able to distinctively
identify payee and payers, even with onion routing.
> [1] Hmm, does forwarding 1 satoshi (2.6 10,000ths of a cent) make
> sense, or would the CPU cycles cost more than the fees you'd make?
> How much does it cost to forward a transaction? In python on my
> laptop, I get about 1000 ECDH operations per second in python, and
> 290k AES ops over a 3kB onion per second, and about 77k SHA256 ops
> per second. So just counting elliptic ops, forwarding a transaction
> requires three ops: an ECDH on the onion message, and an ECDSA on
> the commitment transaction to add the HTLC, and another sometime
> later to remove it. So say 1/350th of a CPU-second. My linode costs
> 3c/hour and seems to be about half as fast on the SHA256 test, but
> gives me two CPUs which evens it out. So so 3/60/60/350 cents is
> about the cost of forwarding a single transaction, which is about
> 2.4e-8 dollars, which is currently about 9.1e-11 bitcoin, which
> is 0.0091 satoshi. Conveniently lightning balances are denominated
> in millisatoshi, so as long as yours increases by 9 or 10, you're
> doing fine. 10 millisatoshi is 1% of 1 satoshi, so that seems like
> the right order of magnitude.
Interesting math, thank you for that!
Mats Jerratsch [ARCHIVE] /
npub1hz…q5x8w
2023-06-09 12:44:49
in reply to nevent1q…slav
Author Public Key
npub1hz386xq4qszumlx5fsxa3kuxpaf8qvfrqqjg8zdl2l892hrcg55q6q5x8wPublished at
2023-06-09 12:44:49Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2015-10-18\n📝 Original message:\n\u003e It only works if you actually setup a channel, though -- so you have to\n\u003e lock some money into the channel for however many confirmations until\n\u003e the channel activates, before you can test, plus the OP_CSV delay if\n\u003e the test fails.\n\nAnd there's the catch. If an attacker achieves nodes opening up\nchannels with him, he already succeeded in vandalism. Furthermore, an\nattacker can always play by the rules and forward all payments up to\none point where he stops. And even worse, if everyone connect to his\nnodes, he can relay all payments, but he is able to distinctively\nidentify payee and payers, even with onion routing.\n\n\u003e [1] Hmm, does forwarding 1 satoshi (2.6 10,000ths of a cent) make\n\u003e sense, or would the CPU cycles cost more than the fees you'd make?\n\u003e How much does it cost to forward a transaction? In python on my\n\u003e laptop, I get about 1000 ECDH operations per second in python, and\n\u003e 290k AES ops over a 3kB onion per second, and about 77k SHA256 ops\n\u003e per second. So just counting elliptic ops, forwarding a transaction\n\u003e requires three ops: an ECDH on the onion message, and an ECDSA on\n\u003e the commitment transaction to add the HTLC, and another sometime\n\u003e later to remove it. So say 1/350th of a CPU-second. My linode costs\n\u003e 3c/hour and seems to be about half as fast on the SHA256 test, but\n\u003e gives me two CPUs which evens it out. So so 3/60/60/350 cents is\n\u003e about the cost of forwarding a single transaction, which is about\n\u003e 2.4e-8 dollars, which is currently about 9.1e-11 bitcoin, which\n\u003e is 0.0091 satoshi. Conveniently lightning balances are denominated\n\u003e in millisatoshi, so as long as yours increases by 9 or 10, you're\n\u003e doing fine. 10 millisatoshi is 1% of 1 satoshi, so that seems like\n\u003e the right order of magnitude.\n\nInteresting math, thank you for that!",
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