đź“… Original date posted:2021-01-19
đź“ť Original message:Regarding incentives, privacy is itself an incentive.
If your business suffers from being spied on (for example you're a
casino or p2p exchange, and regulated exchanges keep banning your
customers) then the cost of adopting payjoin is worth it. That's why I
expect and hope that p2p exchanges will be one of the earlier adopters.
While researching for the Adoption page I was surprised to find that one
exchange has already adopted PayJoin: a no-signup altcoin exchange
called sideshift.ai
On 18/01/2021 20:38, Lucas Ontivero wrote:
> Hi
>
> Before all, thanks for the wiki page tracking the payjoin adoption, it is a
> good idea.
>
> -----
>
> Even when there is a reasonable economical incentive to use segwit
> transactions to save fees a big percentage of the transactions are not
> using segwit yet. In the case of payjoins the economic incentives are not
> so big while the privacy benefits are not so clear for the payer as they
> are for the global transactions graph as a whole. This means that payjoins
> requires some level of altruist attitude from the payers. The payjoins UX
> is also not good because I think most users are not familiar with bip21
> uris (users still request support because they pay a bech32 address in an
> exchange and the exchange tells them that's not a valid bitcoin address).
> All this is relative and subjective but in general terms I would say it is
> more or less true for many people.
>
> Anyway, imagine wallets' developers agree on making payjoins payment by
> default because it is the right thing to do (fight against surveillance to
> spy on bitcoin users and improve bitcoin's fungibility). In that case it
> should be completely transparent to the users and at not cost, it shouldn't
> require the user to do anything different, it shouldn't be noticeable
> slower, etc. In fact, users should have to know they are payjoining at all.
>
> The only way I see to achieve something like that is by moving to schemes
> where wallets can communicate and interact. I should be able to know
> something about you that allows me to select your name from my contact list
> and select "Pay to Chris" and if my wallet knows how to find yours then it
> can request a new address and pays, or generate a new one for you (probably
> using a output descriptor you created to share with me).
>
> Sorry for the long semi-random rant.
>
> El vie, 15 ene 2021 a las 21:07, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev (<
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>) escribiĂł:
>
>> PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the
>> potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on
>> bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has
>> already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as
>> BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet.
>>
>> I've made a wiki page tracking adoption:
>> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption
>>
>> It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page.
>>
>>
>> Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with
>> the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll
>> quote here:
>>
>>> you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an
>> exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you
>> use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and
>> adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to
>> increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become
>> rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your
>> account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did
>> wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t
>> matter.
>>>
>>> The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this
>> trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal
>> wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere
>> except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a
>> regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have
>> accounts to websites.
>>
>> https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye
>>
>> If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for
>> the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase
>> adoption of PayJoin?
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>
Chris Belcher [ARCHIVE] /
npub1ek…lnm2u
2023-06-07 18:28:17
in reply to nevent1q…7f3l
Author Public Key
npub1ekvnqhww3aagwuj9t55dgj5y29u8cxdjllfv3vgppt8vc0zljhrs6lnm2uPublished at
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2021-01-19\n📝 Original message:Regarding incentives, privacy is itself an incentive.\n\nIf your business suffers from being spied on (for example you're a\ncasino or p2p exchange, and regulated exchanges keep banning your\ncustomers) then the cost of adopting payjoin is worth it. That's why I\nexpect and hope that p2p exchanges will be one of the earlier adopters.\n\nWhile researching for the Adoption page I was surprised to find that one\nexchange has already adopted PayJoin: a no-signup altcoin exchange\ncalled sideshift.ai\n\n\nOn 18/01/2021 20:38, Lucas Ontivero wrote:\n\u003e Hi\n\u003e \n\u003e Before all, thanks for the wiki page tracking the payjoin adoption, it is a\n\u003e good idea.\n\u003e \n\u003e -----\n\u003e \n\u003e Even when there is a reasonable economical incentive to use segwit\n\u003e transactions to save fees a big percentage of the transactions are not\n\u003e using segwit yet. In the case of payjoins the economic incentives are not\n\u003e so big while the privacy benefits are not so clear for the payer as they\n\u003e are for the global transactions graph as a whole. This means that payjoins\n\u003e requires some level of altruist attitude from the payers. The payjoins UX\n\u003e is also not good because I think most users are not familiar with bip21\n\u003e uris (users still request support because they pay a bech32 address in an\n\u003e exchange and the exchange tells them that's not a valid bitcoin address).\n\u003e All this is relative and subjective but in general terms I would say it is\n\u003e more or less true for many people.\n\u003e \n\u003e Anyway, imagine wallets' developers agree on making payjoins payment by\n\u003e default because it is the right thing to do (fight against surveillance to\n\u003e spy on bitcoin users and improve bitcoin's fungibility). In that case it\n\u003e should be completely transparent to the users and at not cost, it shouldn't\n\u003e require the user to do anything different, it shouldn't be noticeable\n\u003e slower, etc. In fact, users should have to know they are payjoining at all.\n\u003e \n\u003e The only way I see to achieve something like that is by moving to schemes\n\u003e where wallets can communicate and interact. I should be able to know\n\u003e something about you that allows me to select your name from my contact list\n\u003e and select \"Pay to Chris\" and if my wallet knows how to find yours then it\n\u003e can request a new address and pays, or generate a new one for you (probably\n\u003e using a output descriptor you created to share with me).\n\u003e \n\u003e Sorry for the long semi-random rant.\n\u003e \n\u003e El vie, 15 ene 2021 a las 21:07, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev (\u003c\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e) escribió:\n\u003e \n\u003e\u003e PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the\n\u003e\u003e potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has\n\u003e\u003e already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as\n\u003e\u003e BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e I've made a wiki page tracking adoption:\n\u003e\u003e https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with\n\u003e\u003e the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll\n\u003e\u003e quote here:\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an\n\u003e\u003e exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you\n\u003e\u003e use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and\n\u003e\u003e adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to\n\u003e\u003e increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become\n\u003e\u003e rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your\n\u003e\u003e account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did\n\u003e\u003e wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t\n\u003e\u003e matter.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this\n\u003e\u003e trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal\n\u003e\u003e wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere\n\u003e\u003e except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a\n\u003e\u003e regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have\n\u003e\u003e accounts to websites.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for\n\u003e\u003e the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase\n\u003e\u003e adoption of PayJoin?\n\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e",
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