📅 Original date posted:2019-11-08
📝 Original message:While I agree on NACKing the proposal as it does not add anything new and fundamentally misunderstands what scaling is (or is not in this case), I disagree with the claim that we do not need to deal with block size issue in the future any more. Segwit increased our possibilities on how to use the space more efficiently, but so far it did not completely. It's yet to be seen if advanced offchain constructions such as channel factories are enough. At this moment to claim that would be very bold and hardly justified.
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‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, November 8, 2019 2:36 PM, Emil Engler via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> NACK!
> 1. We have Lightning and SegWit so thankfully we do not need to deal with blocksizes anymore really.
> 2. What if a reorg happens? Then it could generate huge problems at the validation.
>
> Correct me if I understood it wrong please.
>
> Greetings,
> Emil Engler
>
> Trevor Groves via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> schrieb am Fr. 8. Nov. 2019 um 15:26:
>
>> Dynamic MaxBlockSize - 3 Byte Solution
>> "DMBS"
>>
>> If
>> (Last TOTAL Block Trans fees) > (AVG (Last 100 Blocks Trans Fees))
>> AND
>> current MaxBlockSize => 0.99 MB
>> AND
>> MaxBlockSize has not changed in 10 Blocks
>> ** see error catch below
>> Then
>> ON (Current Block # + 9) Set MaxBlockSize = (MaxBlockSize x 1.1)
>> ELSE
>> AT (Current Block # + 9) Set MaxBlockSize = (MaxBlockSize / 1.1)
>> ELSEIF
>> (current MaxBlockSize =< 0.99 or current MaxBlockSize > 6553.5 MB)
>> Null (no action taken)
>> **where 9 above represents the ActivateONBlock (software side) Variable
>> -------------
>> We add this 3 Byte Variable Factor to the white space in the Current Block.
>>
>> eg. this 3 byte HEX 19000A
>> the first bit "1" can be 1,2 or 0
>> 1 = increase future block (9 blocks ahead)
>> 2 decrease future block (9 blocks ahead)
>> 0 No Action (rules evaluate to null)
>> **where 9 above represents the ActivateONBlock (software side) Variable
>> --------------
>> The Second bit is a Global Variable "9" represents a countdown to the set value action, placed to synchronize network forward changes in "x" blocks. software lowers value if evaluates to True a second time and so on.
>> ("Count down" if you will)
>> the last 2 bytes represent the globally accepted "MaxBlockSize" Variable, and is distributed within each block moving forward in this rightmost (2 byte) factor. In this case above,
>> The variable portion "000A" (32 Bit value) represents decimal value 10 being 1.0 MB block.
>> the decimal place is Always Assumed, and must be hard coded
>> Because this presents a theoretical Max limit of "FFFF" or 6553.5 MB, We would
>> have to add a last rule "only as a error catch"
>> ** AND IF MaxBlockSize < 6553.5
>> ---
>> Increasing and decreasing
>> On Every Block mined or distributed, the software can run the above rule set, Change the Variable and Distribute the next block " In Synchronized fashion". The above rules when combined evaluate to a YES or NO, This translates to a market reflection of increased system pressure or decreased market pressure. I think we can agree, at peak periods the system chokes itself off with fees and this is always only temporarily. So we can have the block, analyse system demand dynamically, and adjust on a globally agreed rule dynamically by market driven demand.
>> Considering the ruleset above also Decreases the Block ONLY if its greater than 0.99mb this brings size back to a competitive state /and size once market demand pressures subside, yet achieves the smallest market feasible block size while also maintaining all current rule sets.
>> An attacker would have to affect all block fees over the last 16 hours worth of transactions to affect a 10% max block size increase but then only after waiting 1.5 hours, so long as nothing has changed in the last 1.5 hours and only for a limited amount of time. This approach also limits bloat. This safety block window of 9 blocks provides a look forward and look behind value, in turn provides the network time to synchronize.
>> 10 block sync window. This, by design, also limits changes to one change every 3 hours (20 blocks), if there is a market pressure "STATE" occurring.
>> My Question to the community is. Will our current Block accommodate the 3 Byte
>> Variable, Is solving the Scaling issue worth using the 3 Bytes of space?
>> I believe it is.
>> --
>> Software, Will need to Evaluate MaxBlockSize Variable, and ActivateONBlock Variable from the most recent distributed blocks DMBS 3 byte value.
>> Run the rules , get the answer set the now known MaxBlockSize Var and Propegate the "DMBS" value.
>>
>> As capacity limits are breached, I think the majority agree "we need to agree".
>>
>> MaxBlockSize would provide a suitable middle ground and address concerns in a dynamic fashion, without compromising or changing existing security.
>> Examples reflected in the blockchain 19000A rules has evaluates to true, increase expected in 9 blocks.1.0mb increases to 1.1mb
>> if true for 9 more blocks MaxBlockSize Var becomes 18000A.. 17000A..,16000A ..and so on if still true at 10000A var written becomes
>> 00000B when read from left to right, 0-no change, in 0 blocks current " DMBS" value 000B or 1.1MB and stays that way 00000B until MaxBlockSize evaluates to "True" under a market pressure/ relief situation.
>> I hope this makes sense, I would appreciate some feedback.
>> TG
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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Joachim Strömbergson [ARCHIVE] /
npub135…afd05
2023-06-07 18:21:32
in reply to nevent1q…5p0w
Author Public Key
npub1353dy72duzm2f6r6y898723lczd066zs3etnnqa6dfhw3uuzlu9s3afd05Published at
2023-06-07 18:21:32Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2019-11-08\n📝 Original message:While I agree on NACKing the proposal as it does not add anything new and fundamentally misunderstands what scaling is (or is not in this case), I disagree with the claim that we do not need to deal with block size issue in the future any more. Segwit increased our possibilities on how to use the space more efficiently, but so far it did not completely. It's yet to be seen if advanced offchain constructions such as channel factories are enough. At this moment to claim that would be very bold and hardly justified.\n\nSent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.\n\n‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐\nOn Friday, November 8, 2019 2:36 PM, Emil Engler via bitcoin-dev \u003cbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\n\u003e NACK!\n\u003e 1. We have Lightning and SegWit so thankfully we do not need to deal with blocksizes anymore really.\n\u003e 2. What if a reorg happens? Then it could generate huge problems at the validation.\n\u003e\n\u003e Correct me if I understood it wrong please.\n\u003e\n\u003e Greetings,\n\u003e Emil Engler\n\u003e\n\u003e Trevor Groves via bitcoin-dev \u003cbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e schrieb am Fr. 8. Nov. 2019 um 15:26:\n\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Dynamic MaxBlockSize - 3 Byte Solution\n\u003e\u003e \"DMBS\"\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e If\n\u003e\u003e (Last TOTAL Block Trans fees) \u003e (AVG (Last 100 Blocks Trans Fees))\n\u003e\u003e AND\n\u003e\u003e current MaxBlockSize =\u003e 0.99 MB\n\u003e\u003e AND\n\u003e\u003e MaxBlockSize has not changed in 10 Blocks\n\u003e\u003e ** see error catch below\n\u003e\u003e Then\n\u003e\u003e ON (Current Block # + 9) Set MaxBlockSize = (MaxBlockSize x 1.1)\n\u003e\u003e ELSE\n\u003e\u003e AT (Current Block # + 9) Set MaxBlockSize = (MaxBlockSize / 1.1)\n\u003e\u003e ELSEIF\n\u003e\u003e (current MaxBlockSize =\u003c 0.99 or current MaxBlockSize \u003e 6553.5 MB)\n\u003e\u003e Null (no action taken)\n\u003e\u003e **where 9 above represents the ActivateONBlock (software side) Variable\n\u003e\u003e -------------\n\u003e\u003e We add this 3 Byte Variable Factor to the white space in the Current Block.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e eg. this 3 byte HEX 19000A\n\u003e\u003e the first bit \"1\" can be 1,2 or 0\n\u003e\u003e 1 = increase future block (9 blocks ahead)\n\u003e\u003e 2 decrease future block (9 blocks ahead)\n\u003e\u003e 0 No Action (rules evaluate to null)\n\u003e\u003e **where 9 above represents the ActivateONBlock (software side) Variable\n\u003e\u003e --------------\n\u003e\u003e The Second bit is a Global Variable \"9\" represents a countdown to the set value action, placed to synchronize network forward changes in \"x\" blocks. software lowers value if evaluates to True a second time and so on.\n\u003e\u003e (\"Count down\" if you will)\n\u003e\u003e the last 2 bytes represent the globally accepted \"MaxBlockSize\" Variable, and is distributed within each block moving forward in this rightmost (2 byte) factor. In this case above,\n\u003e\u003e The variable portion \"000A\" (32 Bit value) represents decimal value 10 being 1.0 MB block.\n\u003e\u003e the decimal place is Always Assumed, and must be hard coded\n\u003e\u003e Because this presents a theoretical Max limit of \"FFFF\" or 6553.5 MB, We would\n\u003e\u003e have to add a last rule \"only as a error catch\"\n\u003e\u003e ** AND IF MaxBlockSize \u003c 6553.5\n\u003e\u003e ---\n\u003e\u003e Increasing and decreasing\n\u003e\u003e On Every Block mined or distributed, the software can run the above rule set, Change the Variable and Distribute the next block \" In Synchronized fashion\". The above rules when combined evaluate to a YES or NO, This translates to a market reflection of increased system pressure or decreased market pressure. I think we can agree, at peak periods the system chokes itself off with fees and this is always only temporarily. So we can have the block, analyse system demand dynamically, and adjust on a globally agreed rule dynamically by market driven demand.\n\u003e\u003e Considering the ruleset above also Decreases the Block ONLY if its greater than 0.99mb this brings size back to a competitive state /and size once market demand pressures subside, yet achieves the smallest market feasible block size while also maintaining all current rule sets.\n\u003e\u003e An attacker would have to affect all block fees over the last 16 hours worth of transactions to affect a 10% max block size increase but then only after waiting 1.5 hours, so long as nothing has changed in the last 1.5 hours and only for a limited amount of time. This approach also limits bloat. This safety block window of 9 blocks provides a look forward and look behind value, in turn provides the network time to synchronize.\n\u003e\u003e 10 block sync window. This, by design, also limits changes to one change every 3 hours (20 blocks), if there is a market pressure \"STATE\" occurring.\n\u003e\u003e My Question to the community is. Will our current Block accommodate the 3 Byte\n\u003e\u003e Variable, Is solving the Scaling issue worth using the 3 Bytes of space?\n\u003e\u003e I believe it is.\n\u003e\u003e --\n\u003e\u003e Software, Will need to Evaluate MaxBlockSize Variable, and ActivateONBlock Variable from the most recent distributed blocks DMBS 3 byte value.\n\u003e\u003e Run the rules , get the answer set the now known MaxBlockSize Var and Propegate the \"DMBS\" value.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e As capacity limits are breached, I think the majority agree \"we need to agree\".\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e MaxBlockSize would provide a suitable middle ground and address concerns in a dynamic fashion, without compromising or changing existing security.\n\u003e\u003e Examples reflected in the blockchain 19000A rules has evaluates to true, increase expected in 9 blocks.1.0mb increases to 1.1mb\n\u003e\u003e if true for 9 more blocks MaxBlockSize Var becomes 18000A.. 17000A..,16000A ..and so on if still true at 10000A var written becomes\n\u003e\u003e 00000B when read from left to right, 0-no change, in 0 blocks current \" DMBS\" value 000B or 1.1MB and stays that way 00000B until MaxBlockSize evaluates to \"True\" under a market pressure/ relief situation.\n\u003e\u003e I hope this makes sense, I would appreciate some feedback.\n\u003e\u003e TG\n\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20191108/d63a8de2/attachment-0001.html\u003e",
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