📝 Original message:Jorge Timón:
The node would need to first verify a block before mining on top of it.
Basically a receiver would ask a sender for missing transactions if he
doesn't know them already before propagating or mining the block.
Christophe Biocca:
You're right, my idea doesn't offer any real advantage over
prebroadcasting of the tree and including only it's header in a block.
Thanks,
Eric
On 22.01.2014 23:10, Jorge Timón wrote:
> Maybe I'm missing something.
> How do miners validate blocks if they only receive the hashes of the
> transactions?
> Will they mine on top of a block when they don't know if it's valid?
>
>
> On 1/22/14, Christophe Biocca <christophe.biocca at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Comments:
>>
>> bc:
>> - Ultimately, this helps with block propagation latency, but not with
>> the bandwidth constraints themselves, because all transactions do need
>> to be broadcast.
>> - Most of the benefits of your approach can be obtained simply by
>> prebroadcasting the entire merkle tree while you're working on it. You
>> can get even bigger gains by the miners reusing large chunks of each
>> other's merkle trees (which they could if they had similar transaction
>> selection policies). Then there's just the headers to broadcast.
>>
>> Natanael:
>> - Most of the block's content is important though, because I don't
>> just want to know that the block is valid, I also want to know what
>> changes to make to my local copy of the UTXO. So I don't know how much
>> space/bandwidth you'd save. You would definitely save on signature
>> checking and independent validation, but that's CPU time.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 4:43 PM, Natanael <natanael.l at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Couldn't we also use the type of zkSNARK's that Zerocoin adopted to
>>> prove that the hash-only blocks only have valid transactions in it,
>>> since they are small and quite efficient to verify? The trouble is
>>> that they're still inefficient to generate, but given powerful enough
>>> computers that compiles the hashes for the block and it could likely
>>> still be done fast enough to handle large amounts of transactions. The
>>> computer is likely not going to be the most expensive part anyway by a
>>> far margin.
>>>
>>> zkSNARK = zero-knowledge Succinct Non-interactive ARgument of Knowledge
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 10:06 PM, bc <bc at bcdev.net> wrote:
>>>> Pdf version:
>>>> http://bcdev.net/data/bitcoin_big_tx_with_coin_join.pdf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> == Combining big transactions with hash-only blocks to improve tps. ==
>>>>
>>>> ==== Abstract: ====
>>>> I've heard people talk about including only hashes in a block to speed
>>>> up the network and also about using CoinJoin to improve privacy. I've
>>>> not heard anyone talk about implications of combining these two
>>>> techniques. I think that it would both improve network's anonymity, but
>>>> also improve tps by a few orders of magnitude.
>>>>
>>>> I propose two optimizations:
>>>> 1. Keep only hashes of transactions included in a block. Transfer all tx
>>>> separately.
>>>> 2. Use CoinJoin to merge transactions from many users for online
>>>> shopping and banking.
>>>> 3. Use Jumbo transactions as a fallback for applications where CoinJoin
>>>> is inappropriate.
>>>>
>>>> ==== Keeping only hashes of tx in a block: ====
>>>> Currently every bitcoin block includes a copy of all transactions. This
>>>> is redundant and unnecessary, since after the transaction gets
>>>> transmitted, every node learns about it in seconds.
>>>> By keeping only transaction hashes in block, we can keep block
>>>> propagation time from increasing.
>>>> Assuming a typical tx with one or two inputs and two outputs [typically
>>>> 300 bytes], current 1MiB block can contain about [assuming a block every
>>>> 10 minutes]:
>>>> 1MiB / 300 bytes = 3300tx = 5.5tps
>>>>
>>>> By keeping only hashes in a block [32 bytes per hash]:
>>>> 1MiB / 32 bytes = 31000tx = 50tps
>>>>
>>>> == Benefits: ==
>>>> This method allows to achieve more tps without increasing the block
>>>> propagation time, which is critical for mining decentralization.
>>>> It removes redundancy, since every tx has to be transmitted only once.
>>>> It leads to a more consistent bandwidth utilization [large transactions
>>>> are transmitted all the time, while blocks are kept small and easy to
>>>> propagate].
>>>> Because a block size is a constant, mining fees would not depend on the
>>>> size of a transaction. Obviously to limit the network flood, there
>>>> should be a transaction size limit.
>>>>
>>>> == Problems: ==
>>>> Selfish miner can keep a subset of transactions only for yourself and
>>>> release them only with a new block. This problem can be mitigated by
>>>> making nodes verify all transactions before propagating a block. The
>>>> incentive will then be to mine only a well-distributed transactions to
>>>> lower orphan rate.
>>>> The miner can try to sneak up invalid transaction in a block. This
>>>> problem is also mitigated by not accepting a block before it gets
>>>> verified.
>>>>
>>>> ==== CoinJoin: ====
>>>> If the block size keeps only hashes, a transaction can be much bigger.
>>>> Since CoinJoin allows many people to send coins with one transaction,
>>>> the effective transaction rate can be increased considerably.
>>>>
>>>> == Example: ==
>>>> Let's assume the transaction size limit of 50KiB. Limit of this size
>>>> allows for a CoinJoin transaction between 50KiB / 300b = 170
>>>> participants.
>>>> So for a block of 1MiB, it would allow for 50tps *
>>>> 170effective_transactions/tx = 8500tps.
>>>>
>>>> == Benefits: ==
>>>> There would be an incentive for users to use CoinJoin by default [lower
>>>> tx fees per effective transaction], which would greatly increase
>>>> anonymity of the network.
>>>> Since block size stays the same, block propagation time also stays the
>>>> same.
>>>> It doesn't require any changes to the protocol. CoinJoin transactions
>>>> were always supported in bitcoin.
>>>>
>>>> == Problems: ==
>>>> 1) CoinJoin requires collaboration between many users in real-time. It
>>>> means, that transaction must be distributed to every CoinJoin
>>>> participant, and every participant has to sign it before it can be
>>>> released. Therefore it induces delays, which can take some time.
>>>> It wouldn't be an issue with Internet banking or on-line shopping [where
>>>> even 10 minutes per transaction is fast enough], however even 20 seconds
>>>> can make the system unsuitable for POS payments.
>>>> Potential solution: Use bigger CoinJoin user base for online payments
>>>> [with smaller fees], and a smaller one for POS payments [with larger
>>>> fees].
>>>>
>>>> 2) Signing a CoinJoin transaction requires to transfer a whole
>>>> transaction for a user to sign.
>>>> This can sometimes take up to a few minutes on a very slow networks.
>>>>
>>>> 3) CoinJoin transactions are limited. They are good enough for money
>>>> transfer, but for more advanced appliances CoinJoin might be inadequate.
>>>>
>>>> ==== Jumbo transactons: ====
>>>> I propose another tx type as a fallback where CoinJoin is not Combining
>>>> big transactions with hash-only blocks to improve tps.applicable. It
>>>> would remove the CoinJoin induced delays, while keeping transaction
>>>> sizes big.
>>>>
>>>> Image:
>>>>
>>>> Transaction joiner is a service that collects transactions from clients
>>>> and publishes them as a Jumbo transaction.
>>>> Jumbo pubkey prevents transaction from being modified. It can only be
>>>> accepted or rejected by the miner as a whole, which should limit
>>>> discrimination.
>>>>
>>>> == Algorithm: ==
>>>> 1) Transaction joiner sends a Jumbo pubkey hash to the client.
>>>> 2) Client creates a transaction, includes a Jumbo pubkey hash and signs
>>>> it.
>>>> 3) Transaction joiner waits until there are enough transactions and
>>>> releases a Jumbo transaction to the network.
>>>> 4) A miner includes only a hash of a Jumbo transaction in a block, he
>>>> cannot cherry-pick individual transactions from the bulk.
>>>> 5) The network checks if every transaction inside a Jumbo transaction
>>>> includes a Jumbo pubkey hash and if every transaction inside is valid.
>>>>
>>>> == Benefits: ==
>>>> Since the block size stays the same, block propagation time also stay
>>>> the same.
>>>> There is no need to wait for every participant to sign the transaction.
>>>> It's therefore more suitable for POS payments.
>>>> No additional network overhead for a thin client compared to a standard
>>>> tx.
>>>> Backwards compatibility with current transaction system.
>>>>
>>>> == Problems: ==
>>>> 1) Jumbo transactions don't mix coins. Anonymity of the network is not
>>>> increased.
>>>> 2) There would be an incentive to use this transaction type by default
>>>> [compared to CoinJoin].
>>>>
>>>> Potential solution:
>>>> Make Jumbo transaction size limit lower than CoinJoin. That would make
>>>> fees for these transactions higher, thus creating an incentive to only
>>>> use them when necessary.
>>>>
>>>> 3) Transaction joiner has to wait for a Jumbo transaction to be big
>>>> enough before it gets released.
>>>> It's not a big problem. When the network load is low, the fee required
>>>> for a tx to be included should be lower, allowing for smaller Jumbo
>>>> transactions. When the network load is high, it takes less time to fill
>>>> a Jumbo transaction.
>>>>
>>>> ==== References: ====
>>>> Increasing the Network Hashing Power by reducing block propagation time
>>>> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145066.0
>>>>
>>>> CoinJoin: Bitcoin privacy for the real world
>>>> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.0
>>>>
>>>> Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System
>>>> http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
>>>>
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>
>