📅 Original date posted:2014-03-12
📝 Original message:This spec offers a lot of benefits over BIP 0038:
* Multiple KDFs (I think the chosen list is reasonable and fits all
required use cases)
* Multiple seed lengths
* Explicit BIP 0032 support
* Creation date field
* Plausible deniability (via the multiple-password mechanism)
I don't think it makes any sense to compare this to BIP 0039. BIP 0039 is
for key import/export, but it doesn't deal with anything like encryption,
wallet creation date, etc. The use cases are completely different.
I don't think we should let BIP 0039 (which is perfectly good for its
intended use case) hold us back from improving on BIP 0038 (which is also
good, but could use some changes).
Will
On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Gary Rowe <g.rowe at froot.co.uk> wrote:
> Jean-Paul, it may be worth noting that the BIP39 word list is integrated
> into Bitcoinj so will likely become the de facto standard for Android,
> Trezor web and several desktop wallets. Anyone deviating from that word
> list would likely find themselves in an isolated pocket.
>
> Regarding the timestamp, MultiBit HD uses a simple timestamp of "number of
> days since midnight of Bitcoin genesis block in UTC with modulo 97 checksum
> appended". Thus a new seed generated on 27 January 2014 would have
> "1850/01" as its checksum. When creating a new wallet the users are tested
> that they have written the timestamp down along with the associated
> 12/18/24 words.
>
> Modulo 97 was chosen since it catches about 99% of errors.
>
>
> On 12 March 2014 15:55, Pavol Rusnak <stick at gk2.sk> wrote:
>
>> On 03/12/2014 04:45 PM, Jean-Paul Kogelman wrote:
>> > Yes I am. There are some differences between BIP 39 and my proposal
>> though.
>> >
>> > - BIP 39 offers an easy list of words, no gnarly string of case
>> sensitive letters and numbers.
>>
>> Which is better IMO. I can't imagine anyone writing down a long Base58
>> encoded string.
>>
>> > - BIP 39 only offers one fixed length of entropy, always 12 words, no
>> option to increase or decrease the length.
>>
>> Not true, BIP39 supports 12/18/24 words (= 128/192/256 bits of entropy).
>>
>> > - BIP 39 doesn't have a genesis date field, so no optimization during
>> blockchain rescan.
>>
>> This is nice addition, indeed. But we needed to limit the data as
>> possible in order not to increase the number of words needed to be noted
>> down.
>>
>> > - BIP 39 doesn't have password typo detection. No easy way to recover a
>> password if you know most of it.
>>
>> It has a detection. Not correction though.
>>
>> > - BIP 39 does not have a user selectable KDF, only 2048 round
>> PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA512.
>> > - BIP 39 can't outsource the KDF computation to a 3rd party.
>>
>> True, but having one or two solid options are better than having
>> gazillions of possible options.
>>
>> > - BIP 39 wallet implementors can use their own word lists, breaking
>> cross wallet compatibility.
>>
>> True, but they are encouraged to use the list provided. Possibility to
>> outsource KDF outside of your "standard" breaks much more compatibility
>> than this.
>>
>> --
>> Best Regards / S pozdravom,
>>
>> Pavol Rusnak <stick at gk2.sk>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
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William Yager [ARCHIVE] /
npub1mt…qzgqk
2023-06-07 15:15:14
in reply to nevent1q…j5u5
Author Public Key
npub1mtzsyxnmqze93rehd90508tdg7k4mwktknmtamqam55446tkaq7qnqzgqkPublished at
2023-06-07 15:15:14Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2014-03-12\n📝 Original message:This spec offers a lot of benefits over BIP 0038:\n\n* Multiple KDFs (I think the chosen list is reasonable and fits all\nrequired use cases)\n* Multiple seed lengths\n* Explicit BIP 0032 support\n* Creation date field\n* Plausible deniability (via the multiple-password mechanism)\n\nI don't think it makes any sense to compare this to BIP 0039. BIP 0039 is\nfor key import/export, but it doesn't deal with anything like encryption,\nwallet creation date, etc. The use cases are completely different.\n\nI don't think we should let BIP 0039 (which is perfectly good for its\nintended use case) hold us back from improving on BIP 0038 (which is also\ngood, but could use some changes).\n\nWill\n\n\n\n\nOn Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Gary Rowe \u003cg.rowe at froot.co.uk\u003e wrote:\n\n\u003e Jean-Paul, it may be worth noting that the BIP39 word list is integrated\n\u003e into Bitcoinj so will likely become the de facto standard for Android,\n\u003e Trezor web and several desktop wallets. Anyone deviating from that word\n\u003e list would likely find themselves in an isolated pocket.\n\u003e\n\u003e Regarding the timestamp, MultiBit HD uses a simple timestamp of \"number of\n\u003e days since midnight of Bitcoin genesis block in UTC with modulo 97 checksum\n\u003e appended\". Thus a new seed generated on 27 January 2014 would have\n\u003e \"1850/01\" as its checksum. When creating a new wallet the users are tested\n\u003e that they have written the timestamp down along with the associated\n\u003e 12/18/24 words.\n\u003e\n\u003e Modulo 97 was chosen since it catches about 99% of errors.\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e On 12 March 2014 15:55, Pavol Rusnak \u003cstick at gk2.sk\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\n\u003e\u003e On 03/12/2014 04:45 PM, Jean-Paul Kogelman wrote:\n\u003e\u003e \u003e Yes I am. There are some differences between BIP 39 and my proposal\n\u003e\u003e though.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e - BIP 39 offers an easy list of words, no gnarly string of case\n\u003e\u003e sensitive letters and numbers.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Which is better IMO. I can't imagine anyone writing down a long Base58\n\u003e\u003e encoded string.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e - BIP 39 only offers one fixed length of entropy, always 12 words, no\n\u003e\u003e option to increase or decrease the length.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Not true, BIP39 supports 12/18/24 words (= 128/192/256 bits of entropy).\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e - BIP 39 doesn't have a genesis date field, so no optimization during\n\u003e\u003e blockchain rescan.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e This is nice addition, indeed. But we needed to limit the data as\n\u003e\u003e possible in order not to increase the number of words needed to be noted\n\u003e\u003e down.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e - BIP 39 doesn't have password typo detection. No easy way to recover a\n\u003e\u003e password if you know most of it.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e It has a detection. Not correction though.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e - BIP 39 does not have a user selectable KDF, only 2048 round\n\u003e\u003e PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA512.\n\u003e\u003e \u003e - BIP 39 can't outsource the KDF computation to a 3rd party.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e True, but having one or two solid options are better than having\n\u003e\u003e gazillions of possible options.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e - BIP 39 wallet implementors can use their own word lists, breaking\n\u003e\u003e cross wallet compatibility.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e True, but they are encouraged to use the list provided. Possibility to\n\u003e\u003e outsource KDF outside of your \"standard\" breaks much more compatibility\n\u003e\u003e than this.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e --\n\u003e\u003e Best Regards / S pozdravom,\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Pavol Rusnak \u003cstick at gk2.sk\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e ------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book\n\u003e\u003e \"Graph Databases\" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their\n\u003e\u003e applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,\n\u003e\u003e this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!\n\u003e\u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech\n\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e ------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book\n\u003e \"Graph Databases\" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their\n\u003e applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,\n\u003e this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!\n\u003e http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech\n\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\n\u003e\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20140312/95b8706a/attachment.html\u003e",
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