📅 Original date posted:2015-05-09
📝 Original message:On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Justus Ranvier <justusranvier at riseup.net>
wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 05/09/2015 02:02 PM, Andrew wrote:
> > The nice thing about 1 MB is that you can store ALL bitcoin
> > transactions relevant to your lifetime (~100 years) on one 5 TB
> > hard drive (1*6*24*365*100=5256000). Any regular person can run a
> > full node and store this 5 TB hard drive easily at their home. With
> > 10 MB blocks you need a 50 TB drive just for your bitcoin
> > transactions! This is not doable for most regular people due to
> > space and monetary constraints. Being able to review all
> > transactions relevant to your lifetime is one of the key important
> > properties of Bitcoin. How else can people audit the financial
> > transactions of companies and governments that are using the
> > Bitcoin blockchain? How else can we achieve this level of
> > transparency that is essential to keeping corrupt
> > governments/companies in check? How else can we keep track of our
> > own personal transactions without relying on others to keep track
> > of them for us? As time passes, storage technology may increase,
> > but so may human life expectancy. So yes, in this sense, 1 MB just
> > may be the magic number.
>
> How many individuals and companies do you propose will ever use
> Bitcoin (order of magnitude estimates are fine)
>
> Whatever number you select above, please describe approximately how
> many lifetime Bitcoin transactions each individual and company will be
> capable of performing with a 1 MB block size limit.
>
I would expect at least 10 billion people (directly or indirectly) to be
using it at once for at least 100 years. But I think it's pointless to
guess how many will use it, but rather make the system ready for 10 billion
people. The point is that for small transactions, they will be done
off-chain. The actual Bitcoin blockchain will only show very large
transactions (such as a military purchasing a new space shuttle) or
aggregate transactions (i.e. a transaction consisting of multiple smaller
transactions done off-chain). There can also be multiple layers of chains
creating a tree-like structure. Each chain above will validate the
aggregate transactions of the chain below. You can think of the Bitcoin
blockchain as the "hypervisor" that manages all the other chains. While
your coffee purchase 4 days ago may not be directly visible within the
Bitcoin blockchain (the main chain), you can trace it down the sequence of
chains until you find it. Same with that fancy dinner your government MP
paid for using public funds. You don't have to store a copy of all
transactions that occurred for each chain in existence, but rather just the
transactions for the chains that you use or are relevant to you.
As you see, this kind of system is totally transparent to all users and
totally flexible (you can choose your sub chains). The flexibility also
allows you to have arbitrarily fast transactions (choose a chain or
lightning channel attached to that chain that supports it), and you can
enjoy a wide variety of features from other chains, like using one chain
that is known to have good anonymity properties.
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
--
PGP: B6AC 822C 451D 6304 6A28 49E9 7DB7 011C D53B 5647
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Andrew [ARCHIVE] /
npub1l8…hm88x
2023-06-07 15:33:35
in reply to nevent1q…u8xw
Author Public Key
npub1l899vmy2zhg9zr96jvnxt85ayddd26qu36m02k22759e9djqldnqrhm88xPublished at
2023-06-07 15:33:35Event JSON
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"content": "📅 Original date posted:2015-05-09\n📝 Original message:On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Justus Ranvier \u003cjustusranvier at riseup.net\u003e\nwrote:\n\n\u003e -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\n\u003e Hash: SHA1\n\u003e\n\u003e On 05/09/2015 02:02 PM, Andrew wrote:\n\u003e \u003e The nice thing about 1 MB is that you can store ALL bitcoin\n\u003e \u003e transactions relevant to your lifetime (~100 years) on one 5 TB\n\u003e \u003e hard drive (1*6*24*365*100=5256000). Any regular person can run a\n\u003e \u003e full node and store this 5 TB hard drive easily at their home. With\n\u003e \u003e 10 MB blocks you need a 50 TB drive just for your bitcoin\n\u003e \u003e transactions! This is not doable for most regular people due to\n\u003e \u003e space and monetary constraints. Being able to review all\n\u003e \u003e transactions relevant to your lifetime is one of the key important\n\u003e \u003e properties of Bitcoin. How else can people audit the financial\n\u003e \u003e transactions of companies and governments that are using the\n\u003e \u003e Bitcoin blockchain? How else can we achieve this level of\n\u003e \u003e transparency that is essential to keeping corrupt\n\u003e \u003e governments/companies in check? How else can we keep track of our\n\u003e \u003e own personal transactions without relying on others to keep track\n\u003e \u003e of them for us? As time passes, storage technology may increase,\n\u003e \u003e but so may human life expectancy. So yes, in this sense, 1 MB just\n\u003e \u003e may be the magic number.\n\u003e\n\u003e How many individuals and companies do you propose will ever use\n\u003e Bitcoin (order of magnitude estimates are fine)\n\u003e\n\u003e Whatever number you select above, please describe approximately how\n\u003e many lifetime Bitcoin transactions each individual and company will be\n\u003e capable of performing with a 1 MB block size limit.\n\u003e\n\nI would expect at least 10 billion people (directly or indirectly) to be\nusing it at once for at least 100 years. But I think it's pointless to\nguess how many will use it, but rather make the system ready for 10 billion\npeople. The point is that for small transactions, they will be done\noff-chain. The actual Bitcoin blockchain will only show very large\ntransactions (such as a military purchasing a new space shuttle) or\naggregate transactions (i.e. a transaction consisting of multiple smaller\ntransactions done off-chain). There can also be multiple layers of chains\ncreating a tree-like structure. Each chain above will validate the\naggregate transactions of the chain below. You can think of the Bitcoin\nblockchain as the \"hypervisor\" that manages all the other chains. While\nyour coffee purchase 4 days ago may not be directly visible within the\nBitcoin blockchain (the main chain), you can trace it down the sequence of\nchains until you find it. Same with that fancy dinner your government MP\npaid for using public funds. You don't have to store a copy of all\ntransactions that occurred for each chain in existence, but rather just the\ntransactions for the chains that you use or are relevant to you.\n\nAs you see, this kind of system is totally transparent to all users and\ntotally flexible (you can choose your sub chains). The flexibility also\nallows you to have arbitrarily fast transactions (choose a chain or\nlightning channel attached to that chain that supports it), and you can\nenjoy a wide variety of features from other chains, like using one chain\nthat is known to have good anonymity properties.\n\n\n\u003e -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\n\u003e\n\u003e iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJVTgNcAAoJECpf2nDq2eYjM8AP/2kwSF+HMPR1KdaZsATL4rog\n\u003e xSS97Q5iEX8StA61jUqHQmpXL5pG6z5DeeKT/liwcMnYnVqOEOLvoVctr3gXfgRz\n\u003e 9GJeTOlmN5l9xBeX/nWa0A2ql0kWZpYolBS1FwYadWReAD8R0X9UeBd9YXLZNy33\n\u003e Ow9JjwRjKHhsuyrlMP8pRDKlGPoa/U+2aW4FwiysMLa0Gu6dbFjTrp3bHw4Fccpi\n\u003e X0E/aDN68U4FV+lZ4NzkMsBK9VARzmC8KI0DQ540pqfkcnyoYf0VERl/gslPWhfq\n\u003e t6Rqa7vHHMqFe82lgCd3ji8Qhsz8oBrDS4u4jqwATvgihgImOB6K85JoKmf3y2JS\n\u003e jByjMGd4Ep0F80Z2MRhi6HuEoRU69uY2u6l9bZxMjzvLX8sG6QTNk3uLMS3ARXcY\n\u003e JBjZ/g13DXgcRj01fq05CHbCTJYZgTA9pRZTY+ZKH4r0mu86b9ua7hjvyKHS6q54\n\u003e uaFmRkNcnKlpCY+fvH/JUdvvmwrA0ETUdHhRyk8vzWIMi+aH4//GwrCmBNRrugzv\n\u003e 9JtQ1BC+tQqtSX2VkFEhAVISitgkBqurVVlGk18FvVKPFO8cnFS/6NWoPE0WLLzW\n\u003e 2pTuhEPjdz9UAHD3RW601rb4C0LbuwVlGO4tYBjyqCmk/vBlES2XIjQKctXZLBEy\n\u003e eLgn3gMwEXUTU6UdGyvb\n\u003e =RPhK\n\u003e -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e ------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud\n\u003e Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications\n\u003e Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights\n\u003e Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.\n\u003e http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y\n\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net\n\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\n\n-- \nPGP: B6AC 822C 451D 6304 6A28 49E9 7DB7 011C D53B 5647\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20150509/cd84dd3d/attachment.html\u003e",
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